Kelly 0:00

Ladies and gentlemen, we welcome you to our dramatization of Great Moments with Mr.

Speaker 4 0:06

Lincoln.

Kelly 0:21

Hello and welcome to the Lowdown on the Plus Up, a podcast where we look at everyone's favorite theme park attractions, lands, textures, and novelties. We talk in, over, about, and through our week's topic, and then, with literally no concern for practicality, safety, or economic feasibility, we come up with ways to make them better. My name is Kelly McCubbin, columnist for the theme park website Boardwalk Times, and with me, as always, is Peter Overstreet, University Professor of Animation and History in California. So, Pete, what are we talking about today?

Pete 0:59

Uh today on our inaugural podcast here, we uh we have decided to talk about probably one of the most beloved and yet overlooked attractions at Disney Disneyland and also Disney World and the World's Fair, uh, which is um Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln.

Kelly 1:21

Great moments with Mr. Lincoln.

Pete 1:23

Which it's controversial in some ways, it's scoffed at in other ways, and it's revered in many, many ways. And that's kind of what we're gonna talk about tonight. We're gonna do some deep diving. So for those who are listening, Kelly and I have this habit of going off on these long tangents, and you're gonna totally think to yourself, where on earth are they going with this? And then we will bring it back to the main subject. So we're almost positive. Yeah, it's the journey. It's the journey that matters on this. It's a musical journey. Yes. There will be singing. There'll be bad impersonations and singing involved, I guarantee it.

Kelly 2:01

You know, when well I I uh mentioned I was trying to find out some information about the the Main Street Opera House that that this attraction's in. Um and I found out a lot. Uh uh, some some interesting stuff. But I I posted something on a Disney history group and I said, Does anyone know how big the Main Street Opera House is? And maybe ten people immediately were like, Why? Do you want to get rid of it? What's wrong with you? And I and they were like, Do you want to turn it into a churro stand? And um so I just want to say from the onset, if they were ever to say that they were going to remove great moments with Mr. Lincoln, I would chain myself to the front doors to stop them. Yeah. I love this attraction so much. It's it it pretty much just you and me, I think.

Pete 2:54

Otherwise, we wouldn't be wasting a podcast. Right. Um but yeah, it it's it it is. I'm the same way. Um so I'll I'll I'll I'll kick us off here with with like personal memory. Um When I first went to Disneyland, they were still I must have been three years old because they were still celebrating the bicentennial. So they still had all of that was when I first went too. Yeah, so during the bicentennial. Yeah, probably during the same years there. They had all the bunting everywhere along Main Street. Yep. All of the the main, you know, uh uh cast characters, you know, the Minnie Mickey and Donald characters were walking around with little Uncle Sam hats. Right. Donald had, you know, Donald for some reason was the one with the bloody bandana. But um which is great by me because I love Donald, go kick butt, Donald. Yeah. E or GDonald. Yeah. And my grandparents took me, and my grandparents were still my my grandparents were were very deafly people of the past. If they went someplace special, they dressed for the occasion.

Kelly 3:55

Yeah.

Pete 3:55

They went to movies in a suit, and you know, Chanel number five, you know, both of them. Yeah. And and we went to Disneyland, and I'm wearing a little Hawaiian shirt and my little shorts and stuff like that. They bought me a Donald Duck hat, and I got to hang out with Donald for a minute. I just went beeline for Donald. But it was right outside the opera house. Yeah. And the first thing we like, I wanted to what do we do now? Because I had no idea what Disneyland was about. Yeah. And my grandfather said, let's go see Mr. Lincoln first off.

Kelly 4:25

Yeah.

Pete 4:25

When your grandfather says that, when my grandfather said that, it was usually like, we know somebody, let's go meet them. Right. So we go inside, and there's the giant model of the White House, there's all of the artifacts, you know, um, you hear the narration, you've got the screens going with the opening, with the prologue. Yeah. And people were really lined up. I remember it being very crowded and being kind of like, what are we doing? So this wasn't like how it is today where everybody's like, I'm ready for a nap. Right. It's like, yeah, let's go see Lincoln, you know, and it's air conditioned, you know. Right. But everybody was all lined up, ready to go in. And we we trundled in, and I was seated next to my father, in between my my father and my grandfather. And we go through the whole show, they've got all the stuff with the video and all the art and everything. And then finally, you know, the curtains open and Mr. Lincoln rises up. Ladies and gentlemen, Abraham Lincoln. And he started, you know, they start the famous ending speech of the show. Yeah. And I swear every audience member's head turned when a little Peter Overstreet stood up and said, How old are you? Because when you meet when you're a kid, when you meet somebody, the first thing you do, I don't know why kids do this. I think it's establishing hierarchy. But it's like you ask, How old are you? And so like everybody looked and they started laughing because I was convinced that this was a real person who was kind of like grandpa, kind of moving a little stiff. So that's okay. You know, I didn't, I hadn't put two and two together. And I wasn't close enough to see, you know, the hydraulic fluid leaking out his ear or anything like this. So I was I was captivated by Mr. Lincoln. And when we walked out, you've got the battle hymn of the republic going, and like, you know, welcome to America, and everything's like I think I got patriotism, American, true American patriotism, like good old-fashioned uh patriotism instilled in me because of the that show. Yeah. And that's why that's why it resonates with me still. And every time I go, I still have those those memories of like take a deep breath and remind yourself about America for a minute. And that's kind of how I do that. It's and it's and and we'll go further into that for a minute, but that's just something that's never really left me. And so that's one of the reasons why I still love that show.

Kelly 6:51

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm right there with you. I I I went for the first time during the bicentennial. Um Disneyland was a weird place for me as a kid because um it was sort of the place that uh my parents would just kind of let me go. And and it was like, here, just go do whatever you're gonna do. Um and so I don't actually recall being with other people. So I'm, you know, like this 10-year-old kid, 19-year-old kid. Wow. Like wandering around. And at that time you could. It was it was pretty safe. Um and and just wandering around and seeing stuff. And I remember um and of course you had to have ticket books at that point. Oh yeah. But Mr. Lincoln was free. So I saw Mr. Lincoln a number of times. Yeah. And um I also saw uh uh went on Adventures Through Interspace a number of times because it was also free for a while when when Monsanto was still uh sponsoring it.

Pete 7:49

Aaron Ross Powell But then if Monsanto was the sponsor, was it really free? No.

Kelly 7:54

I think I think we've all paid.

Pete 7:59

But that's a different show.

Kelly 8:00

Yeah.

Pete 8:00

Anyway, you're saying, I'm sorry.

Kelly 8:02

I do I remember sitting in that show, and I I still get this feeling now, sitting in the show, and you get to points in it where it is so profoundly moving. And I know like we're looking at a different Mr. Lincoln at this point, like the the audio animatronic has been redone like three or four times over now. We do still uh uh what's playing now is an edited version of the original speech. Uh because evidently the they had replaced it for a little while when they tried to put the Gettysburg Address in, which is actually not part of the speech at all. There is none of the Gettysburg Address in the original speech because Walt, who was fairly obsessed with Abraham Lincoln, uh felt like that was the only thing people knew uh of what Lincoln said. So he d he told them deliberately put this together from other speeches. But I I still there's there's moments in that speech that still just give me chills. I mean, r really it it does instill patriotism in in me. And there's a lot of reasons uh to to feel like weird about nationalism uh uh uh in our society now. But um boy, I went and sat through this thing a year ago. Uh-huh. And I was moved.

Pete 9:29

I was absolutely moved. It's interesting. I once heard somebody say that Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln is the equivalent of uh examining a Norman Rockwell painting. It comes from the heart.

Kelly 9:42

Yeah.

Pete 9:42

And it it is coming from someplace uh mostly pure.

Kelly 9:47

Yeah.

Pete 9:48

Um and it's very definitely geared it it it succeeds at giving you the emotion that it is geared towards making in you. Yeah. You know, like most people in some way it elicits a very deep response.

Kelly 10:04

Yeah.

Pete 10:05

Um well, those who remain conscious during the show. Because there are some people who nap, that becomes a thing.

Kelly 10:11

But I certainly do like I I've seen plenty of times when people go in there and are just crashed out. Oh yeah.

Pete 10:19

Yeah. Well, I mean, when we talk about the patriotism and coming from the heart, you told me an interesting story, and I'm sure that a lot of the listeners out there who are um Disney fanatics probably are have already heard this story, but for those who don't know it, um, let's go to its origins, like the very deepest origin of the origin of this attraction. Uh, you were telling me that Walt Disney, at a very young age, was obsessed with Abraham Lincoln, the man and the legend itself. Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

Kelly 10:50

That's right. He was known to go to his school and dress as Mr. Lincoln and and perform, uh oddly, ironically, given what we've just said, the Gettysburg Address, so much so that he would go perform it in class, and then they would send him around to other classes to perform it.

Pete 11:12

Can you imagine like being that obsessed and you're like walking into class and the teacher's like, all right, let's talk about Pythagoras's theorem. That's right for a score. And there you go. It's like, shut up, Walt. You know, it's like, it's nowhere near President's Day. Why are you dressed like that? I don't know, Ma. You know. Roy's just like rolling his eyes, like, oh, it's my kid, brother. Well, and yeah. We know to bail him out again. He's super blue on the beard. You know, he's gonna be stuck that way for a while.

Kelly 11:42

You know, I and and it's interesting, it speaks to I I think there's a connection here with what we were saying before, like when we were talking about the fact that the speech doesn't have the Gettysburg Address in it. Um it seems clear to me that he was obsessed enough with Lincoln to have a depth of historical knowledge about him. Yeah. You know, because he is right. Most people, they know the Gettysburg Address, they know the Civil War, and that's kind of it. So his later insistence on not including the Gettysburg Address, his insistence on that really shows like, no, no, no. He understood this topic. And and you know, we can't we can't always accuse him of being having a lot of historical depth.

Pete 12:31

Very true. But yes, yeah.

Kelly 12:33

But this might be one instance where we can. I'm not sure that's really what happened with Davy Crockett. But let me Yeah. Let me let me move forward at the end. I was really I was I was looking forward to to to giving you a quick quiz. Okay. Because I discovered a name that I did not know. Okay. I want to ask if you know this name. Okay. Do you know the name Lee Adams? Lee Adams.

Pete 13:13

Apart from the kung fu master of brother of Gomez, no, I don't I don't actually know who Lee Adams is. Please tell me. So this is this is going to blow your mind.

Kelly 13:26

Okay. Lee Adams is the imagineer who invented audio animatronics. Oh, okay. How is it that we do not know this name?

Pete 13:37

That's that's an interesting like the the technology behind it for so I know Wethel Rogers was part of the engineer. Yeah, and Roger Broge was involved. Yeah, we all know we all know yeah, Walter Brogy, we know all of them. But yeah, Lee Adams, like, why don't we talk about him?

Kelly 13:51

I know, and he he was he was an imagineer, he was an electrician that worked for the Disney company. Um he walt brought him a mechanical bird and said, make this better.

Pete 14:04

Okay.

Kelly 14:05

So it was just like a toy bird with some fun rudimentary mechanics.

Pete 14:09

I actually my parents own one of them. Yeah. It's the same era. And it's this weird little leather and paper bellows. Yep. And it moves with such rapidity and and quick succession of tweets that it really does sound like a little bird whistle. Yeah. It's amazing.

Kelly 14:23

And so they so Walt went to Lee Adams, his electrician. Yeah. And and said, I want you to make this better. Wow. And Lee Adams went and invented audio animatronics. Very rudimentary version. And what I find most fascinating is that I mean, you and I know a good amount about this stuff.

Pete 14:44

Oh, yeah.

Kelly 14:44

How do we not know the guy that invented it? Right. And it's it's really odd. And it just seems to me that maybe he got kind of buried under later imagineers. Um he uh the other thing I I discovered that he had invented, you can't find much on him at all, um, except for invented audio animatronics. But he uh he also invented the tracking device that monitors the trains that go around the park. Oh, interesting. So you've seen that electronic board with the lights. Yeah, yeah. That the that I I'm making gestures which no one listening can see, but the lights that circle around the park so everyone knows where the trains are at all times.

Pete 15:24

For those who don't know, it actually looked like Kelly was steering a school bus screen wheel, imagining the trains going around. But I but by doing that I totally see it. Like, yes, this train is over here in Frontierland while this one's leaving tomorrow. Yeah, so that's interesting. I mean, it y you might be right on that. In the fact that like the people who use tools usually get notoriety. The people who make tools usually don't. That's right.

Kelly 15:50

That's right. And so we we we love the designers. Yeah. So, you know, we y we obviously love Raleigh Crump and we love Bob Gurr, and we love Mark Davis, and we we love these guys because they designed visual things that we can picture. But Lee Adams didn't. He just designed something that goes inside. Mm-hmm. You know, that that that is the fundamental technology that makes theme parks work today.

Pete 16:18

Aaron Ross Powell And it's wild and so m and there's been so many expansions upon the technology to the point where now um they're they're they're no longer what i I think what they're actually trying for is not just audio animatronics, but autonomous animatronics where you have like imagineers have unleashed little duck droids that walk around on their own in Star Wars Land, or if you see that root that walks around in the Imagineering's hallway, yeah. Just to see if these characters can move on their own. And um we have Lee Adams apparently to thank for that.

Kelly 16:58

The Lowdown on the Plus Up is a Boardwalk Times podcast. At Boardwalk Times.net, you will find some of the most well-considered and insightful writing about the Walt Disney Company, Disney history, and the universe of theme parks available anywhere. Come join us at BoardwalkTimes.net.

Pete 17:23

He opens up his park, he becomes this worldwide phenomenon, everybody's watching on main ABC, and then he gets a call like, hey, you've got this park open. We need stuff at the World's Fair in New York.

Kelly 17:37

Yeah. Well, so this this is interesting because um, as you know, I've been rereading uh The Power Broker uh about Robert Moses. And the New York World's Fair, it the 64 World's Fair is the one we're talking about. Yeah. Um it was Robert Moses' baby. Um and and the reason that Moses wanted it was because he was trying to get public funds to build flushing meadows in Queens. He thought that was going to be like the the park, because he was the parks commissioner. That was gonna be the park that represented the crowning achievement of his career. Right. So he was gonna have all these people come in and basically develop it for him as part of the World's Fair. Now it didn't work out that way. It was it was i the World's Fair, even though a lot of what we think about that particular World's Fair is sort of glamorous and fascinating, it was actually a huge failure. So um f first off, it wasn't actually a World's Fair, interestingly enough. The um organization that runs the World's Fairs refused to sanction it. Really? Yeah. And the r the reason they refused to sanction it, there was two there was two reasons. Um one is that they had a rule that said World's Fairs should not last more than six months. Okay. But Moses wanted to go for three years. Okay. And two, that um you couldn't charge countries rent when they came in to to put their pavilions up in the World Fair. And Moses very much wanted to. Now there's an i interestingly about this, um other World's Fairs got away with breaking those rules a few times. But this was Robert Moses late in his career, and he didn't like being told no about anything. And he ticked them off real bad.

Speaker 19:39

Oh dear.

Kelly 19:40

So that organization, the uh I can't remember what they're called right now. I think the acronym is the BEI. Um no, the BIE, the Bureau of International Exhibitions, I believe is what it's called. Um So they said not only are we not sanctioning this World's Fair, we're going to tell countries not to come. Oh my god. So that is the reason that the 64 New York World's Fair has no European no Western European countries except for Spain. Spain is the only one that showed up. Wow. I did not know that. That's crazy. So then the um the World's Fair lost a tremendous amount of money. Yeah. Um they they they never made their money back. Um moving into the second year, they were severely in debt. They were never going to be able to pay off the money that New York State had loaned them. Yeah. It was bad. And by by the end of the second season of the New York World's Fair, they just were like, we're not doing a third season. We can't take on any more debt. Yeah. So the only person that came out of the World's Fair looking good was Walt Disney. Right.

Pete 20:59

Epically so. Yeah. I mean, the fact that we're talking about this now is, you know, is today is it all really stems from this.

Kelly 21:07

Well, absolutely. Like the things that came out of that World's Fair for Disney, obviously Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln. It's a small world was was uh uh the UNICEF attraction at the World's Fair. Um the the people mover, because the f the Ford magic uh Skyway was actually the people mover mechanism just using Ford cars, which is really ironic when you think about it, because it's Ford trying to promote buying automobiles to drive on the highway, and Disney is using that to invent a new kind of public transportation.

Pete 21:47

Well, yeah. And and also the Ford Pravilion, you also have uh the primeval world. That's right, yeah, which which is still in Disneyland. Yep. Yep, you have the dinosaurs of the primeval world. We don't have the cavemen. Yeah. Sadly, because they're one of some of my faves. I don't know why they're so charming, but they are. But anyhow. But yes, then there's this call to do this special show about America. And we have to just For For the Illinois pavilion. For the Illinois Pavilion, yes. And it's also we also have to understand that this is 1964. This is not long after Kennedy has been assassinated. That's right. This is the transition of what people where a lot of Americans look fondly on the 50s with nostalgia, you know. Movies like Greece and things like that. But actually the 50s was actually a very difficult time because what's going on is a lot of repression and conservatism because people don't want to go back to the trauma of World War II. And we also have these other threats, you know, in finger in finger quotes, giant finger quotes of communists and the civil rights movement is really starting to build up steam, etc. etc. And 19 there's this transition in 62 that a lot of people agree, like 1962 is like the last year of the great year of the 50s. And a lot of a lot of baby boomers actually look very fondly on 1962. Yeah. And I think it's because everybody was on this massive high. Yeah. And then Kennedy gets killed, both Kennedys get killed. Right. And uh Martin Luther King gets assassinated, and the world is now thrown into what we are now calling the 60s. Yeah. And we are also dealing with an external threat and the space race. Right. We're in the throes of the space race as well. And so the Russians are very definitely, you know, the Soviet Union and America are really at each other's throats. And so there's this uh desperate need for American identity.

Kelly 23:55

Yeah.

Pete 23:55

And I think that's one of the reasons why the Lincoln exhibit hit as hard as it did in the Illinois Pavilion, just in concept alone. Like before they even built it, like just the concept alone made people go, oh yeah, let's let's see what this is. Because I think I think people were like really interested in like what is America really about right now.

Kelly 24:17

Yeah, I I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, we came out of an era of of kind of relative opulence because frankly, we were the uh one of the very few uh first world countries that didn't have the crap bombed out of them during World War II. We still had industry. Um we we were fairly well off, but there was the threats you were mentioning, there's uh a rising nuclear threat. Um perceived and real.

Pete 24:48

Perceived and real. Some were not real. Some were not real, but some were very definitely real.

Kelly 24:52

Trevor Burrus, Jr. And and and and the civil rights struggles were really starting to rise to the surface. And and you know, it was gonna take us kind of getting to uh past Kennedy's assassination and into Lyndon Johnson for that to real for any significant change to actually happen, but uh also to see kind of the lid fly off of it. Yeah. I have heard Johnson Voting Rights Act and his civil rights legislation uh uh compared to Lincoln's legislation. And it's like it is the most important civil rights legislation since Abraham Lincoln. So it's interesting that we're talking about that.

Pete 25:34

Aaron Ross Powell, and it's also interesting that it's Johnson who is who not a lot of people look at him and go, yeah, he was a great president and he was a nice guy. He wasn't a nice guy. The guy was kind of a jerk. Oh no, he was a monster. Yeah, he was a he would he there would be times if he's waiting too long, he would pee on the shoes of his Secret Service guys because he could. Yeah. And he's like, Hey, you want to see my appendix scar? Take it out.

Kelly 25:58

And you're like, oh my God, Lyndon.

Pete 26:04

Yeah, he'd lean into them. There's great photographs.

Kelly 26:07

And like poke them in the chest.

Pete 26:09

Yeah. And my favorite, I actually have this whole series of them in a in a scrapbook, and it's all these pictures of President Johnson leaning over different diplomats and different congresspeople. And then it ends, the whole thing ends with this great picture where he's leaning back, and who's leaning over him is Martin Luther King. It's so great. It's like the Johnson lean is suddenly turned around on him. You know, it's it's so symbolic of what we're talking about. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Kelly 26:33

It is absolutely. It's interesting because I I I have uh also read four of the soon-to-be-five volumes of the Lyndon Johnson biography that Robert Carro's wrote. Wow. Robert Carrow, who also wrote the Power Broker about Robert Moses. Yeah.

Pete 26:51

Um better man than I am. I don't know if I could do a a Johnson, one Johnson biography, let alone four to five.

Kelly 26:58

That's crazy. They're strangely riveting, but maybe that's just me. And uh there it is. Yeah, I have I have issues. But the the most the last volume ends just after the Kennedy assassination. Yeah. And and and the leans right up to the point where Johnson goes on national television and raises a fist and says, We shall overcome. Yeah. And uh which changed the world at that moment. Yeah. And it talks about how he would get calls from Martin Luther King late at night, where King would be like, We need to make sure that you're safe, Lyndon. Like we're we're concerned because we really need you now. You've you've taken on this role, we really need you, but we're worried.

Pete 27:49

And that's interesting that you know this is the world in which this attraction is birthed. Right. Because, you know, we're talking about one president who's taking big steps legislatively towards civil rights.

Kelly 28:03

Yeah.

Pete 28:04

And you've got the World's Fair coming on.

Kelly 28:07

Mm-hmm.

Pete 28:08

And what I honestly, I I I would love to go back in time and actually or have a conversation with some of these people that were behind all of this and ask them if they were aware that one of the reasons why this was such a hit on so many levels with different people is because of the parallels. The parallels of um the civil rights movement, of like the emancipation of African Americans from slavery into free men and women, and and and what was going on with the civil rights movement of the early 60s. And it was almost like let's remind ourselves how far we've come and how far we have to go in one swoop with this attraction. I wonder if that was if that ever entered anybody's mind or if it was just like, we like Lincoln. Lincoln's a funny president. We he's on the penny. That guy, you know, the dude with the funny beard and the giant hat. He looks, you know, he looks like an idiot, but he's actually a really nice guy. And he's he's, you know, because let's face it, in pop culture, he's everywhere. Like he's he's in Geico ads, he's in Bill Ted's Excellent Adventure. Yeah. He's, you know, he's a Muppet. I mean, he's everywhere. Yeah. And and we make fun of him endlessly because um and it's always kind of tongue in cheek make fun of him. Sure. No, I don't think of anybody really doing anything mean about Lincoln.

Kelly 29:33

I don't think I've ever met anyone who was just like, mm-hmm. Lincoln, what an idiot. Like, no, that that just isn't really happening.

Pete 29:39

Because he was certainly not. No. But um but yet I think there's something about the fact that he was a president of extremes, in which he was basically we were on such a precipice with the Civil War. Yeah. And um him trying to keep the Union together, yeah. As well as the emancipation of of African Americans, um, that I think that's where the he became he transcended just a historical figure. Yeah. He became a legend almost like King Arthur. Except with with like people like King Arthur or Robin Hood, where they're very definitely based off, probably based off of long-dead actual historical people.

Speaker 5 30:22

Mm-hmm.

Pete 30:23

We have photographs of Lincoln.

Kelly 30:25

Right, yeah. You know, I mean we have we have, you know, to tie it into this attraction, we have a mask made from his actual face. Yes. It is in fact exactly his face.

Pete 30:42

Yep, and handed off to Blaine Gibson, you know, who was our our sculptor. So good old Blaine, I mean, he's one of my another one of my, you know, the ever he's on everybody's list of like, yeah, really great anime, you know, uh imagineer.

Speaker 5 30:56

Yeah.

Pete 30:56

Um but yeah, sculpting it, figuring out uh one thing I found out recently is that Lincoln was only six foot four. And a lot of people think like so for those who don't know, Kelly and I are both. This is a little guy, is what you're saying. Little fella. Kelly and I are tall men. I am six foot five. I'm six foot eleven. Yes. So Kelly calls me shorty, and which is a rarity. So, but I always used to think that actually Lincoln was a little bit taller than me, and and a lot of people think that because of the attraction.

Kelly 31:30

Yeah.

Pete 31:30

The the figure of Lincoln, the animatronic, uh in the adventures of uh Lincoln, I believe, is six foot seven, and it was built that way to accommodate all the technology that had to fit inside. Wow. In order to make him rise up, all the hydraulics and all the electronics. So they just said, well, why don't we just make him a little bit taller, and that extra two or three inches gives us the space that we need to make it all work.

Kelly 31:53

Oh, I didn't know that. That's really interesting.

Pete 31:55

Yeah. So it's like, yes, his face might be accurate, yeah. But he's actually, you know, bigger, literally bigger than life. Yeah. Um, which just kind of adds, and I think we're getting to another part of this, which is like this attraction actually enhanced the legend of Lincoln in the later part of the 20th century and into the 21st century, more so than I think people actually want to acknowledge. Because of these little things of like um uh you know how tall he was and the way he spoke. Right.

Kelly 32:30

And so Oh yeah, and and and and we've we've discussed this a little bit. Yeah. But first off, before we get off the body size, oh yeah, I wonder because uh as the audio animatronics turned into uh uh automatronics, which I just is a term I learned today, but I guess that was the next phase, and then became just solid state electronics. I wonder if the body came down or if they just kept that original size. Because once they're solid state, you didn't need to fit in the huge machinery anymore. Yeah, I don't know. Well, and I I saw just the other day I was at the Walt Disney Family Museum, and um they have part of one of the Lincoln body frames there. I'm unclear as to which one it is. Uh the the World's Fair one I know was lost for some time. Yep. Uh and eventually found like packed away in a crate somewhere in Imaginary.

Pete 33:27

That's really interesting.

Kelly 33:28

Yeah, the person opened that one up was probably in for a surprise. But that that one's on display at Disney World in the um at at Hollywood Studios in the uh one man's dream attraction. Oh, yes attraction. And the one that is at the Disney Family Museum was supposedly donated by Bob Gurr. So my guess is that that is sort of the the internal carcass of the first Disneyland Lincoln, which was different because that one opened at the same w while the World's Fair one was still running. Yeah.

Pete 34:07

Yeah, because they built two simultaneously. So um Yeah, and that and that brings us to the actual unveiling of like uh of this attraction at Disneyland. We've we've been going off all these historical tangents, but let's actually get to the attraction here. Um so for those who have never been to Disneyland, take a look at the map. And when you walk into the park, you go through the ticket booth, you have the little thing with sludgy, and you go inside, you know, and you and you go underneath the um the train tracks and or you get your picture taken in front of the train with the giant flower Mickey and da da da. And you go into Main Street and you're facing, I believe, it's it's on the south side of Main Street or Yeah, it's on your right when you're entering. It's on your right when you're entering, yeah. And it's just right there. Yeah. And it's the Grand Opera House, and you see great moments with Mr. Lincoln. It's right next to the Disney Gallery. Right. Um, and you walk in, and the first thing you see is this giant model of the White House. Yeah. And it kind of sets you off like, okay, this is gonna be America's stuff. Which is a little awkward now, but imagine doing this in 1965 because when this premiered, right? This was, you know, uh this is a Ten Sennial. And we're gonna have uh Julie Reim. We're gonna show her around, and this is the Ten Sennial is gonna be showing us her uh Broly tell it tell tell Julie what you're doing here. Yeah. Well, we're gonna be yeah. It's uh Yeah, so this is the this is premieres at Disneyland during the Ten Sennial as part of it. Right. And so Walt has already become like the equivalent of Betty Crocker, like everybody knows the name Walt Disney. Yeah. And so he's already an American legend before he even dies, and he's unveiling this other American legend of Abe Lincoln. Yeah. And so when people are coming in in 1965, the world is changing and kind of needs a little reminding of something good about America at this time.

Kelly 36:13

And when you And that and that's a lot of what we got out of those World's Fair Attractions. We got this, we got the carousel of progress, um, we got It's a Small World, you know, it's uh a lot of what came out of that was this this sort of enforced optimism.

Pete 36:29

Yeah, and I think that's and and and and that's a great point. Cause I think this makes one of the this this brings us to like we've been, oh boy, we love this thing, it's so great, and here's some history, and nerd, yeah, nerd nerd nerd nerd nerd. Yeah. But let's let's really tack on to something here because there's several things that happen with people's negative attitudes towards this attraction. Yeah. First one is it's boring. Yeah, I I disagree with that. Um I do too, but that let's just talk about anyway, let's just put that on the list. You know, people find it boring.

Kelly 37:01

I I I will say that I I find it puzzling that the pre-show has been expanded and the actual Lincoln speech has been shrunk. Um I I I I find because I'm I don't know, maybe they figure people want to see big things on screens more than they want to see the robot move. But I disagree. I I I would rather have the full Lincoln speech and get rid of the uh the like the two brothers song or you know, whatever. And the that song is fine. I don't have any problem. It's from the uh The American Adventure in in Epcot, is where that originated. But I don't need it. I don't it seems to me that Walt's intention and and let me pause here and say, I'm not one of those people that believes Walt was always right.

Pete 37:57

No, we can both agree to that.

Kelly 37:59

Yeah, his intention could be very wrong sometimes.

Pete 38:01

Yes. But his actions could be very wrong. I mean, yeah.

Kelly 38:04

He's he's in he's something someone that we're inspired by, but he's he's got depth, which includes some some negative sides. But um his intention seemed very much to present the Lincoln around the Civil War, not the Lincoln of the Civil War. And you know, we talked about that earlier, that that there seemed to be some historical depth because Walt wanted to shy away from the stuff that everyone already knew about Lincoln. So by um I think it was like the third iteration of this that they reworked it. So he was just reciting the Gettysburg Address. Um that certainly was not what Walt wanted to happen. And now they have this long pre-show that includes the Three Brothers song that is heavily focused on the Civil War. Um Civil War history is important. I'm I'm I'm all for it. I don't think that's what he wanted this show to be about.

Pete 39:04

I can see that.

Kelly 39:04

Yeah.

Pete 39:05

I can see that. Yeah, it's he's it's really about the reverence of the man, the president, Lincoln. Um at least that's what it it by from my observations in the way that I view it. I I agree. It's like, yeah, it's more about let's not worry about the Civil War. Civil War, you're dealing with, you know, you got Johnny Rabb versus you know the Yankees. That's right, we're gonna take on those Yankees over there. And it's like, no, it's it's really complicated and it's really ugly. And there are people today that just can't fathom it, to the point where people kind of get a little false with how they perceive it or how they perceive it publicly. We don't want to get too political tonight, but that that that that does actually stem with how people react to this attraction now, which is I think why the popularity of it has actually waned in recent years. Yeah, I I w I wonder. Um because that's one factor, you know. Yeah. Oh boy, this show is boring, but there's also like, yeah, it's all Civil War and stuff, you know. Yeah. I see that, you know, and it's like, wait a minute.

Kelly 40:13

Yeah, I you know, I I I wonder because how much do do we as a nation actually agree on the sort of what happened in in the Civil War? Um it seems to me, and I'm sure to you, it's fairly clear. It's like slavery bad. Oh, yeah. Needed to be stopped by any means. And I think there's fairly broad agreement about that, but then again, I don't spend a lot of time in places where there wouldn't be. Yeah. Um But I also do think that there's just simply a uh sort of thrill ride factor. Like people are going to these parks to get on thrill rides and and they get they get bored by sitting in a a show of one man talking, even though what he's saying is very beautiful.

Pete 41:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um What I love is the sumptuousness of the design because the opera house itself as a building already is like this big spacious building to put it in, and it's a heck of a lot of real estate in such a small space. What what what what what was it before it was the Lincoln exhibit? Well, Pete, I'm glad you asked. See how see how I do those transitions?

Kelly 41:28

Yeah, that's great. So um so the Main Street Opera House was the first building constructed on the side of Disneyland. Now it is not the first building that existed. There were some pre-existing buildings that were left standing uh when when sort of everything was raised so they could start construction. Right. But it was the first thing actually constructed. It was the lumber mill. Oh wow. So it was used to uh to treat and cut all of the lumber that built everything in Disneyland, which is why that building is really big. Yeah. And and to give a sense of the size of the building, I went I went and looked and uh asked some folks and said, how how big is this? And it's a little difficult to tell, but um what you can generally see is that if you look at the building that houses um uh the Alice in Wonderland ride, the Mr. Toad ride, and Peter Pan's Flight, because it's uh that's all one building. Right. And you superimpose the Main Street Opera House on top of it, the Main Street Opera House is about two-thirds of that size. Okay. So you could put two dark rides in there.

unknown 42:51

Okay.

Kelly 42:53

Okay. And that's just one floor. The uh the upper floor of the Main Street Opera House was used for a lot of things, but initially what it was used for um w once things started actually kind of getting up and running at Disneyland was it was the switchboard for the park. It's where all the switchboard operators were. Wow. Okay. So I read this great story recently. The is your party. Yeah.

Speaker 43:22

Calling Pete a Pan.

Kelly 43:24

Absolutely. There were there were banks of people, probably almost entirely women, yeah, um patching people through in old school switchboard panels of right over the lumber mill. And uh and even after Mr. Lincoln was there, they were still doing that. Wow. I heard this great story that um occasionally people would complain about when the gates opened for Disneyland Park. And the the people at Disneyland that ran the gates, because this was before we all have cell phones and electronics and stuff, they would just look Look at the clock above the train station. Okay. And when it said whatever time, eight o'clock, whatever, they would open the gates. And so when people would complain, they would go the the people running the gates would go to the train station and go, Are you sure that your clock is right? And so the people at the train station to check would call the operator and say, Can you tell us what the time is? A hundred percent of the time it was correct. The reason a hundred percent of the time it was correct was the way that the operators told the time was that they leaned out the window and looked to the clock over the train station and reported back this is the time.

Pete 44:50

Is that the time? Yeah, that's the time. It's like what's the weather? Uh it's cloudy. You know, like looking out the window. That's funny. Yeah, it's it's amazing on how much real estate that the this attraction actually gets. It's huge. It is massive. And when you think about what's actually in there show-wise, by today's standards, I mean, now that we've had you know uh Carousel Progress or America Sings, all that kind of stuff. It's like it all it's massive. But when you really think of what's in there, it's a movie screen, yeah, automatic opening curtains, yeah, and a single animatronic that talks to you. Right. That's it. And and and stage lights, you know, yeah, and and um and you have the automatic opening doors, and you get in, and it's this p fabulous plush velvet seats, velvet curtains. I think it was like a you know, well over a hundred and forty yards of red curtain. Yeah. Yeah. Massive. And you sit through the opening and you go through this whole video presentation, and then the curtains open and there he is. Yeah. You know, there's the dude himself, you know, this animatronic, this all this, you know, uh in all of his glory, introduced in his first Disneyland gig the voice of the Pillsbury Doughboy and Ludwig van Drake, Mr. Paul Fries. Yes. And now Ghost Host. Yes, and now the skill of the sculptor and the mind of the engineer, but you know, whatever the the the spiel is. And you know, cue all the schmaltzy chorus music. Yeah. It's delightful. Yeah, totally. But it's schmaltzy. And and and it's and then up he stands and out, you know, and and Mr. Lincoln stands up and looks around, and he's already moving, so it's already giving the illusion that he's alive. Right. Slow, measured movement. Yeah. He actually is standing with that pose of the world on his shoulders. So he is very definitely a Civil War weary president, yeah.

Kelly 46:56

As depicted. Yeah, and interestingly, the the speeches that that his speech is drawn from, which I think there's four or five different speeches, they go from some of them are prior to the Civil War and some of them are after. They're kind of all over the place.

Pete 47:12

Aaron Ross Powell, Jr. Yeah. And and and um and speaking of voice actors, we would be remiss remiss without mentioning our good old friend uh Royal Dano. Royal Dano. Royal Dano. The great Royal Dano. He's one of so I'm sure you you guys have already who are listening have already told that I do impersonations in the picture. He's one of my favorite. He is the actually the first voice that I ever impersonated as a kid. Wow. Because I would listen to I had an LP from the World's Fair that my dad found at some thrift store or something like that. It was the Great Moments of Lincoln Record. And I would listen to it over and over again because I was fascinated by his voice. Yeah. There's something about it, and Lincoln did not sound like Royal Dano. No.

Kelly 48:01

Pretty much everything that we know about Lincoln's voice, because obviously it was never recorded, but everything we know about his voice was that it was fairly high-pitched and sort of irritating. And people people wrote about this at the time.

Pete 48:16

Well, yeah, there's a lot of eyewitness accounts to talk about, and not just biased like, you know, Robert E. Lee heard it, and it's like, I hate that poop-ahead. He Sam Saka fanshi. You know, it's none of that. It's it's really like, no, I like the president, but I hate listening to when he talks. But oh my God. I like the guy, but wow, that voice. What is you know, drink some whiskey, like, you know, smoke some cigars, eat some eggs, something, you know, get that voice box going. And and it's it's kind of funny. You would think like, what other voice actors out there could have actually matched what he really? And the only voice actor I can think of at the time would be Arnold Stang. Yeah, that's right. Four scoring seven years ago. And you're like, ew, you know, or Don Knott's, you know, like well, listen up here, Mr. Yankee. Doesn't quite work, you know. Um, Royal Dano actually um played Lincoln in films before, and he has this delightful weathered face that resembles Lincoln. Um, his delivery, his acting skills, he always played these characters that were always kind of weather beaten, yeah, down homey, Midwestern souls. Um and he's in a lot of really good films. Yeah. He's in the right stuff. Right. Uh he's a re you know, he's the reverend of all the test pilots. Um he's he plays a very pivotal role. He's actually the detective in the trouble with Harry. Uh Alfred. That's Royal Dano? That's Royal Dano. Wow. Trying to solve the murder of who actually killed, you know, Harry. And very young, he's walking around in his leather jacket and everything trying to make sure that Jerry Mathers doesn't kill anybody. And then uh, and of course, this is this is kind of a nightmare I'm gonna have tonight. Believe me, I'm sure Tony Dow had plenty. Yeah. Um But uh there's another film that actually is kind of interesting because I always I always view this particular movie, it's a Disney film, and I always view this film as kind of the precursor to the any haunted mansion movie out there. Uh and uh because I viewed this as what would happen if uh evil came to Main Street and it's Ray Bradbury's Something Wicked This Way Comes. That's right. You told me this, and I did not realize it was the person. Tom Fury, the lightning rod salesman. Right. And like when that movie came out, it was not long, it was only a couple years after I had first seen the Lincoln exhibit. Right. And I knew exactly who that was as soon as he starts talking. He'd like, you know who tells you? Tom Fury tells you. And I went, oh my god, that's the guy who does Lincoln. Yeah. And I finally could put the face to the voice. Right. And I would I immediately like I didn't go home and read the book Something Wicked This Week. I went straight from my Mr. Lincoln and started memorizing it again, going, Oh my god, there's my there's that voice again. Yeah. And I think uh apparently Walt was a big fan of Dano's and uh uh uh and and wanted a voice that had gravity. He didn't want it to be irritating the way that the history like he was well aware the of the eyewitness accounts.

Kelly 51:37

Yeah.

Pete 51:38

And what's interesting about Royal's performance is that he pretty much cemented how everybody hears him in his voice. Right. That that is what we think Lincoln's voice is now. Yeah. I mean, even Daniel D. Lewis, who is in Steven Spielberg's film Lincoln, yeah, even he mentions in an interview at one point that he had to fight getting rid of the old misconceptions. Right. Kind of hinting at the fact that I I had to fight off the Disney version because it's so distinct. Because I mean you everybody knows the line. If you ever if you ever you know go to the thing, it opens, you know, it's like and and I'm I'm not gonna do this any justice because Kelly's microphones are too good. Because if you ever listen to the audio of all the anything that's spoken, it always sounds like it's spoken into a tin cup. Yeah. Um, for whatever reason, and I'm sure we'll do a whole show on the audio recording of and which would actually be very, very fascinating. Yeah. But you know, you have Royale coming up, and you have, you know, the world has never had a good definition of the word liberty. And the American people just now are much in want of one. We all declare for liberty, but in using the same word, we do not all mean the same thing. And it's like, you know, it's yeah. And I I've come to realize this was actually, you know, for those who are listening, I actually had this realization about a couple weeks ago, Kelly and I were getting together for dinner, and I was doing that speech, and I suddenly realized I'm not actually impersonating Royal Dano. I'm impersonating the bad tinny recording of Royal Dano. Of Royal Dano, yeah. He probably actually had. So I actually add that distortion to his voice with the bad Disney mics of the mono mic. And so when I do my impersonation, I'm actually imagining the hiss in the background. Because that's the other thing. You actually hear the audio is actually quite terrible.

Kelly 53:31

I know what I know what you're talking about. Like it's it sounds so terrible. It sounds like they maybe put the speaker in the robot body, and that's the version of the speech that we're hearing. Yeah. But um, last time I went, it wasn't so bad. And and it turns out, but they they re-recorded the voice because of this exact problem, because the original recording was so tinny. And then somewhere along the way, they found a better version of the recording. Oh, interesting. So it is now back to Royal Dano's performance, but a much higher quality. Now, how that happened is beyond me. Like someone made the recording and said, quick, let's make a bad copy and use that. Right. Like what I don't know what happened.

Pete 54:15

It's yeah, it's almost like it's a recording of a recording. Yes. And and maybe that's because of the technology of the time of having to take a recording and put it into the audio animatronic computers to match the motion with the sound. And so they could only run it as a mono track, and they they would have then have to have multiple computers, like in the tiki room. Yes. You have to, you know, like Pierre is running off of one particular computer, you know, Jose is running off of one, Fritz is running off of a different one, and then all of the flowers are running off, and the tiki gods are running off a different one.

Kelly 54:50

And I believe in the tiki room, I'd have to look it this up to be sure, but I believe they're still running off the same equipment that they started on. Wow. I don't think that's been updated.

Pete 54:59

I we'll have to look that up. I'll have to ask some friends of mine. They may not uh they may actually know. Um The soundtrack's been improved, but um I think the actual audio animatronics. Yeah. How about improved? Because I there's there's like I miss the whistling song, frankly. But anyway, different show.

Kelly 55:18

Um but basically what we're saying, Pete, is that we like long, slow Disneyland shows.

Pete 55:23

Well, I mean, we're over fifty.

Kelly 55:25

That's right.

Pete 55:27

And for those at home, no, we actually do like the Star Wars rides and things like that. Yeah, we do, yeah. But I think so this is this is where we come to the ride now. I mean, we could go into the whole thing about the Hall of Presidents, but I think that's its own beast, frankly. Yeah. Um But with Lincoln, it opened up to huge like I like I said, when I was a kid in the 70s, it was still very, very popular. Right. In the 80s and then the nineties, it really started to wane where they actually there have been many discussions off and on of we should get rid of it. No, we can't get rid of it. Well, they did close it for a little while.

Kelly 56:03

Yes, they did. Um, and they they put in the the Walt Disney story and just as a film there. And i I I was trying to find this out, and I and I'm not sure, but I think they may have just left Lincoln sitting in his chair that whole time for like several years. Just sitting there behind the screen.

Pete 56:25

That you know, I I have this vision in my head of like just Lincoln just covered in cobwebs, yeah, waiting like a vampire later, you know.

Kelly 56:36

When they first tried to reactivate him, it was just a flurry of like black widow spiders and rats coming at you.

Pete 56:42

Yeah.

Speaker 56:43

Just cloud of dust, just okay, it's time to actually do a show again. Somebody dust off my pate, you know.

Kelly 56:52

It's like but you know, to to your point, yeah, when they did do that, people were angry.

Pete 56:58

Yes, they did.

Kelly 56:58

Um They were angry, yeah. Yeah, and and so they eventually brought Lincoln back, and they've tried a few things to to sort of spruce it up, but I think it's very telling that we are basically back to the show we started with.

Pete 57:12

It is. And and um it's one of those things where the more things change, the more they stay the same. Yeah. I I am gonna get just a little political here for a minute, and I don't and I'm actually gonna try and be very even-handed on both sides of the spectrum on this one. And and uh being a weirdo liberal, it's gonna be very hard. But I do believe that we do need to actually have better conversations between both sides of the argument. Sure. Because we have better understanding. But I do want to say that regardless of what your political stance is, regardless of where you stand as far as where we are right now in the realm of American politics, there's one part of this speech that really I was listening to this again and it really hit home and I found it prescient, and I actually it actually kind of made me think about tonight's podcast in a different way. Um because we actually, before we did, before we recorded this, we were like, okay, we're gonna do this, and then we're right. So Kelly sent me some challenging questions, like I want you to think about this part. Okay, I'll do that. But then I I went off on this other tangent. When you get to the speech, there's this part I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do my my royal impersonation. I that's just I don't want to. But the the the the line goes at what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer that if it ever reach us, it must spring from amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we ourselves must be the authors and finishers. As a nation of free men, we must live through all times or die by suicide. And of all the lines in that speech right now, I think that is something that keeps it very, very relevant. Because not a lot has changed, and some have begun the argument that we are actually approaching a very similar time politically and ideologically that was during Lincoln's time.

Kelly 59:30

Yeah.

Pete 59:30

And I would actually make the argument that this is an even better time for people to actually view this attraction, if nothing else, for just a moment of contemplative perspective.

Kelly 59:50

This month at Boardwalk Times.net, we are celebrating our seventh anniversary with a few top seven lists, as well as articles about Ron Moore's upcoming Society of Explorers and Adventurers TV show, the ever-shifting landscape of Disney corporate management, updates on construction at Six Flags Magic Mountain, and my article about how Ludwig von Drake got himself involved in a Disney shareholder proxy war. Come check it out at boardwalktimes.net.

Pete 1:00:21

No matter how much we love it, it is undeniable that the audiences are just not coming.

Kelly 1:00:29

Yeah.

Pete 1:00:29

As much as we would love that, and and I and I I hope that at least some of you who are listening to this will go, Well, next time I go, I'm gonna go. Yeah, we'll go twice. No, seriously, because if you really do like this thing, somebody actually made a great quote, which is yeah, the the great you know, uh great moments with Mr. Lincoln is pretty much like Superman.

Kelly 1:00:51

Yeah.

Pete 1:00:51

You like him, but you don't really like him.

Kelly 1:00:54

Yeah.

Pete 1:00:55

Like a lot of people go, like, I really love it. It's like, well, when was the last time you went? More than once during a trip. Right. I actually go twice every time. I it's I usually go, it's usually one of the first things I do, and it's usually one of the last things I do. Because it's a great way to kind of walk out of there with that feeling of positivity and of perspective. Yeah. And you feel kind of built up. And that's that's that's the at least for many, many filmmakers and many storytellers, you want your audience to have a good sense of self when they walk out. Right. But because part of the title of the show is plus up, yes. Let's let's have a little fun here. Okay. And I'm not gonna I'm I I've I've talked enough. I want to hear your take on what Kelly McCubbin would do. Plus up. So this is this is our imagineering pitch.

Kelly 1:01:50

Yeah.

Pete 1:01:51

So this is pitch number one. Kelly, how would you plus up? You know, it's Mr. Lincoln.

Kelly 1:01:56

It's super tough. I mean, so we we are talking about a tremendous amount of real estate. So I you know, uh uh obviously you're you're you're trying to get more people in there. Right. Um but you also want to maintain some of the integrity of the show. So here's my thought. We have a space that's as big as two major dark rides.

Pete 1:02:27

Let's build a couple of more Lincolns and turn it into a dark ride. Different different times and different phases of it. Yes.

Kelly 1:02:36

Okay, yeah. And so so you get in like an omni-mover, like a you know, a Lincoln mobile.

Pete 1:02:43

Let's just not make it let's not make it the booth at the playhouse.

Kelly 1:02:48

Yes. Like that that's a little that's a little morbid. Yeah, let's let's let's perhaps end the ride before we get to the book.

Pete 1:02:55

Okay.

Kelly 1:02:57

Wait, wait, I'm rethinking this. Can we do a whole Lincoln and the Bardo ride? No, we do we just it's like it's like the Lincoln haunted mansion. Yeah. And you're you're you're in you're in a Bardo mobile and and the voices of Lincoln's dead son is whispering in your ear.

Speaker 1:03:24

Tad, is that you? Tad, Tad. Tad, whooping cough sucks.

Kelly 1:03:34

And just, you know, 90% of the ride is Lincoln like kind of walking towards the graveyard and then turning around and going back.

unknown 1:03:42

Jeez.

Pete 1:03:45

So I love the notion of it being a little bit like um Spaceship Earth. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's kind of an overview of mo great actual moments with Mr. Douglas.

Kelly 1:03:56

With Mr. Lincoln. Yeah, so so we can we can have like moments from the Lincoln Douglas debates. Ooh. Um, you actually maybe move into a scene where the train pulls up and you see him on the back of the train about to do the debate.

Pete 1:04:11

Nice.

Kelly 1:04:11

You know, uh d moments from the election, you would include moments from the Civil War. Um I I think I think you'd leave out the assassination. That's probably unnecessary.

Pete 1:04:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelly 1:04:25

I think that's a little too much. Aaron Ross Powell But but I think that uh you know it if if Spielberg's film proved anything, and and I I like that film a lot. Oh yeah but if that film proved anything, there is a lot of drama in this man's life. Oh yeah. And you could really turn it into something interesting and um I don't know if I want to use the word exciting, but I'll use it for lack of a better one. Um but still maintain some of the integrity of of Lincoln. Yes. Um so that that that's my thought. I mean, you've got the space. It would certainly increase the throughput. That is true. More people would ride it than ride Voyage of the Little Mermaid.

Pete 1:05:11

Another show, another time. Um I so I'm gonna preface mine with kind of a little side note. Okay. Because people have been talking about plussing this for years. Right. Like, well, how do we fix this up? And they have, like you said, they have made attempts in the past. Yeah. But also people have made very like coming off as snide parodies, but actually slightly prescient. Um there was a comedy troupe from the 60s and 70s called the Fire Sign Theater. Yes. And they made an album called We're All Bozos on This Bus.

Kelly 1:05:44

I have it right over here. I can point at it.

Pete 1:05:46

Yeah. And in it, it depicts a uh a character uh and uh this main character is an engineer who winds up in a theme park because he kind of wants to mess it up. Right. And they have this kind of carousel of progress, primeval world attraction. And you're just listening to it and it's totally making fun of Disneyland and then at some point you get an audience with the president. Yeah. And and and he meets up with it and and it's like, hello, so nice to meet you. Army. Yeah. Clem. Oh Clem. Yeah. And and you are you are prompted to ask him a question.

Kelly 1:06:29

Yeah.

Pete 1:06:31

And I'm going to leave that there because I want I want everybody to know that that was done in like 1976 or something early, very early. And Firesign Theater Geeks, yes, you can get angry at me too for my ADHD lack of memory of exact things, which is actually interesting because the name of the computer in the album is Dr. Memory. So anyway, I actually know David Osman. He's a great guy. I've met him a couple of times. Fabulous dude. David, don't get on my case. So anyway. What I foresee is a couple possibilities. One is they should actually make it a lot more interactive in some way. And they certainly have the technology now to actually pull off a Dr. Memory style interactive, like an audience with the president where you ask him a simple question. Yeah. The main problem with that is that everybody is gonna try and goof with it. Yes, absolutely. It is you know, every you know, there's a reason that there's a phenomenon called Flash Mountain. There's a you know, like the the rebel spy is always somebody making a goofy face, you know.

Kelly 1:07:41

Trying to keep E.T. from saying cuss words as your name.

Pete 1:07:44

Oh yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that probably won't happen. Yeah. So, but people do desire a lot more interactivity or a lot more connection. So here's my plus up. My plus up for this is to not necessarily move away from Lincoln. We may actually have to change the name of the show, um, where it's more like, you know, Lincoln the Man, Lincoln the Legend, or something like that. Sure. Um but I think, like you, I think we should use the real estate a little bit better. Yeah. And the show should actually be about it should be a moment where you really do begin your tour of the theme of the theme park. You arrive at Disneyland, you're ready to go on the rides and everything like that, yada yada. And if you really want to do it well, and if it's your friend's first time, you should take them straight to this attraction. And what it does, yeah, it should actually start off with a a a filmed recreation or an animation or whatever of Walt walking down the corridors of his school dressed in his cardboard hat. Oh, God, that would be so good. Actually doing the opening of the Gettysburg Address as a little kid, and you don't know who it is at first. It's a little kid doing Abraham Lincoln, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, and this is Walt Disney. Yeah. And you go, Oh, and you actually do exactly what pretty much what this podcast has been all about, which is give a real brief summary about Walt's obsession with Lincoln, why he liked I mean he certainly talked about it a lot in interviews about why he liked uh Lincoln. Yeah. And then when you get the great moments part, the the great speech that we hear does not actually end the show.

Kelly 1:09:34

Yeah, okay.

Pete 1:09:35

It's the middle of the show. And it's part of that, you know, like just so we for all those of us who are diehards who love it, get to hear the speech and we get to see Lincoln. We get our dano fix. We get our royal dano fix, you know. But I think there should be two curtained alcoves, one on one side and one on the other. And the first one you see is Lincoln. Then the other one opens up, and what happens is you actually, you know, on the stage there should be a couple of old ABC style television cameras.

Kelly 1:10:09

Yeah.

Pete 1:10:10

And I think it should actually be a highlight of how both of these men, Walt Disney and Abe Lincoln, and so we should actually have a I mean, the technology is there. Yeah. We certainly have enough information about Walt. Yeah. And Disney certainly seems to be okay with revising reviving the dead. Yeah, they do. So why not actually do it and give people the moment of, you know, to oh come to this place, welcome. You know, and you actually have Walt doing the inaugural speech of Disneyland.

Kelly 1:10:42

Yeah.

Pete 1:10:42

And and that's when the doors open.

Kelly 1:10:44

Yeah.

Pete 1:10:45

And you and you exit the park. So you get this whole relationship of Walt. It would be a show that would be geared towards not just here's a recreation of Abraham Lincoln. Yes, that's part of it. Yeah. But the other part of it is here's a recreation of Walt Disney and why he wanted to do this. Yeah. And why this attraction, it's out in a way, it's an attraction that's reminding you of why it in itself is so important. Right. It was the first. It was everything you're going to see from now on starts from this point here that you're sitting at. Now go off and have fun. And everything you see, you know, from the hat box ghost to the you know, the the um, I can't say the mermaids in the lagoon because they're not there anymore. But you know, all every animatronic that you're ever going to see now, even to BB eight running around over in Star Wars, yeah, is stemming from this one central point in history. And it stems from one man who struggled and another man with a tremendous vision.

Kelly 1:11:45

Yeah.

Pete 1:11:46

And it's, you know, and it's interesting. It like Paul Fries' narration still hits true, you know. The for from the hands of the sculptor and the mind of the engineer, we present Great Moments with Mr. Disney.

Kelly 1:11:58

Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. So you you you kind of envision this as a as a a choice. You can come in and if you really want to do it upright, you can go straight into the the Great Moments building and and have this sort of introduction to the park first thing.

Pete 1:12:15

Yeah. I mean, and it becomes and it becomes a way for you to because they used to kind of do that. And they and they've they've done some theming like that with like Buena Vista Avenue over in California Adventure, where you're supposed to kind of feel like how how Walt was during phase two of his life. I I really like that area. I do too. I think it's I think it's delightful. Yeah. Um it's actually my favorite part of the whole park.

Kelly 1:12:37

Yeah, I I it it really it kind of works, and in some ways it's sort of out main streeting Main Street right now.

Pete 1:12:43

It does, yes. For that very reason. It's like you're actually tying together with the legend a little bit more. Yeah. Even though Walt actually lived right across from the opera house in the fairhouse. You know, it's like why are they not acknowledging that more? Yeah. Because they certainly, you know, a lot of us they bank on the legend of Uncle Walt. Right. Well, let's address that. I mean, let's address why the Lincoln exhibit was important at the World's Fair, right. And why it is prescient back then as it is today, and why it still resonates and why it still has value, and as a way, and it's also a way to kind of go, and Uncle Walt was pretty cool. He was complicated, but he was just like how Lincoln himself was complicated, and you have this parallel between these two guys, and it and you know, and it's like literally like Walt watching his hero, and then he gets to get up and make a speech.

Kelly 1:13:33

Yeah.

Pete 1:13:34

And that becomes it, it's like it comes full circle of this little kid who revered him, brings him back to life, like conjuring the legend of Lincoln, and he it's it's like hero worship, like the way that a lot of us would react. So I have a friend named Bill Burns, and Bill Burns is a cosplayer, and probably a lot of you may have actually seen him when he went viral because he cosplays as Walt Disney from the era of Wonderful World of Disney with the gray suit and the Walt Disneyland, yeah, yeah, Disneyland, and there was a very famous video in which he coming right out of great moments of Mr. Lincoln, yeah, one of the cast members, as Mickey Mouse came out, turned around and saw Walt Disney and almost like apparently the cast member was almost crying because it was like, There's Walt, and like gave Walt up it, Mickey giving Walt a hug. Yeah, it went super viral. And the park hasn't really made any sort of major statement, like we don't want him here, but at the same time, Bill conducts himself in such a great way because he knows the weight that he carries when he cosplays. Right. He actually has the number one, somebody made him a number one badge, the Imagineer badge that he wears under his lapel, so you can't mistake him for an actual cast member. Yeah, he's just a visitor, so he's not an official. But so many visitors, so many guests would you know say over and over, they should hire him full time to be able to have that moment with Walt would be amazing. Because my parents used to tell me about when they would go to Disneyland on a regular basis, because a lot of my family comes from Orange County, and you would be waiting at the jungle cruise, and all of a sudden, you know, and they turn around and there's Walt. And it's like, oh, there's Mr. Disney, you know, and he's like putting a cigarette out, you know, the kids are looking at me, you know. Yeah, yeah. But you know, man is in the forest, and there there he is, there's there's Walt. And there's something magical about being able to actually run into the dude himself in his own theme park. Yeah. And we'll never have that again, obviously, because he is dearly departed. But having something that gives you that taste and still pays homage to this very seminal attraction, despite it a lot of people complaining and making it snoozing and all the jokes and all of the all the comedy routines that have been put out there. Yeah. Ultimately it is a very important thing. And to remind people of that, and also remind people of the origin of the attraction itself, that this came from somebody with tremendous amount of love and respect.

Kelly 1:16:06

But I but I I love what you're saying here. I I think it makes so much sense. Like really draw those stories together. Yeah. You know, show show show why this is not only you know the show right now is trying to show why Lincoln is important, and that's good, but also try and show why Lincoln is important to Walt Disney.

Pete 1:16:30

Yes, yeah. And and what which led to this, which led to that. Right. It's like this little dream of this little boy with a cardboard hat and a cotton beard on his glued to his face, yeah, running around, reciting the Gettysburg Address. That's so charming. That notion of that is actually quite charming. Oh, absolutely. But when you really think about that, whole this whole story that we've talked about tonight, it's it's kind of interesting how that's like the seed that started everything. Yeah. And it actually like leads to us literally having this very conversation. Yes. Like we would not have this conversation if that did not, you know, exist. Um I want to add one more little plus thing that so I once had the honor, thanks to my friend Tim O'Day, uh, he uh managed to make things all come together. And I got to have lunch with uh the imagineer Tony Baxter. Yeah. And this was like this uh he knew how important this was to me because I always wanted to meet Mr. Baxter, and Tony, Tony's a great, very generous person.

Kelly 1:17:35

Tony Baxter's the big kahuna these days.

Pete 1:17:37

Yes, he is. Everybody, you know, everybody's like, oh wow, Tony Baxter. And for those who've never met him, yes, he really is that nice in real life. But he's also a very twisted soul. Because at some point, Kelly and I are gonna do a show about the Haunted Mansion. Yeah. Talk about some of the stuff that he and I discussed about the mansion. But at one point, I actually asked him, What are the three attractions that you would plus at Disneyland? And he said, Well, one is gonna be All of Tomorrowland, yeah, another one will be um the uh uh Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln. And I said, half jokingly, like, are you gonna apply the formula of thrill, you know, of uh danger minus death equals thrills? And he said, Well, animatrics are good enough. We could actually make John Wilkes Booth jump out from behind the curtain and oh, that's really dark. And he goes, It'd be interesting. Yeah. And I went, yeah, we're not gonna do that. He said, Yeah, we're not gonna do that. But that's actually an interesting point because it does go along with the notion of your dark ride plus, which is how far do you actually push it so that way people are really getting something out of a dark ride without having to go the Charles booth route? Um I think it will be a balancing act. Whatever Imagineer is listening or whatever future Imagineer is listening and gets this opportunity I wish it was me, but I don't I don't think that's in my cards. But uh if anybody's out there listening and gets inspired like little Walt listening and reciting the Gettysburg Address, if you think of a way how to plus this even better, please consider what Kelly and I have talked about tonight. Yeah. About this connection that these two people have and how much how innocuous it actually first seems when you see this attraction, and then when you really think about it, how much it's actually influenced everything that's come afterwards.

unknown 1:19:46

Yeah.

Pete 1:19:46

Because I think it's really, really, really important. So I don't know. Um you have any any last thoughts before we wrap up tonight?

Kelly 1:19:54

Well, I know I think I think you've you've really summed some I think you've really like drawn something together here that's that's really important and and and I really love it. Like this idea of bringing Walt Disney and Lincoln together and and and and it it branches from that point. Yeah. Because we have a problem and this is a whole other discussion, but we have a problem that Disneyland occasionally seems on a verge of losing its identity. And um, you know, I still go there and and and feel very I I walk in and go, yes, I'm I'm back. Like I'm back at Disneyland. It still feels like Disneyland to me, but every once in a while you wander into bits of it or you see new things and you go, What is this? Um But I think it i you could anchor Disneyland's identity with what you're talking about.

Speaker 1:20:59

Yeah.

Kelly 1:20:59

With showing this this little kid that idolized Abraham Lincoln and how his vision of America and how his vision of patriotism influenced everything you're about to experience. And and I think that could be really profound.

Pete 1:21:18

Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln is uh like you said, it's part of Disneyland's identity, which is um the young and the young at heart can actually have a moment where they are reminded that there is innocence in the world and that there is goodness in the world. And I know that sounds schmaltzy and sounds a little sentimental, but that's exactly the whole point. Yeah. Is that Disneyland sprang from somebody who wanted the world to be a better place and was actually trying to show us how it could be. Right. Even though he was a flawed person. I will totally acknowledge that. Absolutely. That but that's it's coming from a good place. And I think Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln is actually one of the purest of that, which is I find fascinating. It's like the purest of that element of let's show people what pure patriotism is all about with this one great guy. Yeah.

Kelly 1:22:17

I think that's a really good place to stop.

Pete 1:22:18

I think so too. So thank you very much for listening, everybody. Yeah. Thank you, Pete. Yeah, thank you, Kelly. We'll see you next time.

Kelly 1:22:26

We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Lowdown on the Plus Up. If you have, please tell your friends where you found us. And if you haven't, we can pretend this never happened and need not speak of it again. For a lot more thoughts on theme parks and related stuff, check out my writing for Boardwalk Times at Boardwalk Times.net. Feel free to reach out to Pete and I on our Lowdown on the Plus Up Facebook group, or send us a message directly at comments at lowdown-plus-up.com. We really want to hear about how you've plus these attractions up and read some of your ideas on the show. Our theme music is Goblin Tinker Soldier Spy by Kevin McLeod at Incompitech.com. We'll have a new episode out real soon. Why? Because we like you.