Kelly 0:30

Hello and welcome to the Lowdown on the Plus Up, a podcast where we look at everyone's favorite theme park attractions, lands, textures, and novelties. We talk in, over, about, and through our week's topic, and then, with literally no concern for practicality, safety, or economic viability, we come up with ways to make them better. My name is Kelly McCubbin, columnist for the theme park website Boardwalk Times, and with me as always is Peter Overstreet, University Professor of Animation and Film History in Northern California.

Pete 1:06

So, Pete. Yeah. What are we talking about today? Well, we're going to talk about a whole bunch of stuff today. Boy Howdy. Yeah, boy. Boy Howdy. Yeah. Normally we're not a current events kind of show. We're more about history and nostalgia, and even though we do look tend to look forward sometimes with our plus-ups. Yeah. Today is kind of interesting because you had your fingers deep in the Disney pie with D23. Do you want to tell us about that? Because it's going to lead into some fun stuff here.

Kelly 1:39

I tell you, we we we run into current events like the E.P. Ripley running into the Rainbow Caverns Mine Train. That was the nerdiest thing I've ever said. Yeah, I spent um a lot of this weekend being the de facto temporary, probably will never be hired for that job again, editor-in-chief of Bordwalk Times. Uh we we uh had a group of people uh doing a whole bunch of writing following the D23 show that was this week. And uh we had our actual editor-in-chief, uh Zach Perelstein on the floor. So it was it was drinking from the fire hose with Disney News. Two years ago, D-23 showed up and they didn't have a whole lot. Yeah. Uh this year they came loaded for bear. There's a lot of stuff. And we should start off with the victory lap. Yes. Because because Boyd, and and I'm not even gonna say we called it. You called it.

Pete 2:40

Thank you. Yes. Okay, so I get to brag. Okay, so in our very, very first episode, which if you haven't heard, is available on all of our streaming sites so you can go back retroactively and listen to this. Our first topic was Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln. And we talked about how we could plus it up in our last section of that show. And I talked about uh how there should be some sort of corollary between Walt's obsession with Abraham Lincoln and also an interest of the history of the park because of so many people having a love and a nostalgia for Walt and his vision for the theme park. And I basically said, you know, it'd be kind of cool if you got to see Lincoln as a as uh animatronic as usual, with an you know, updated you know, uh methods that they're using today. But then also have perhaps maybe an animatronic Walt performing the opening lines for the park or introducing himself and he's in his studio, and it's basically uh, you know, the wonderful world of Disney Walt in his gray suit with the little Japanese marker tie on his tie pin on. And lo and behold, at D23, the news was announced that they that is exactly what they are going to do.

Kelly 3:58

I actually I I I want to give you even more credit here because I think your idea was better than the idea that that they had. I I'm I'm gonna try and sort of remain agnostic on the idea of animatronic Walt because I I have I have uh some nice feelings about it and some not so nice feelings about it. Um but your idea of incorporating Walt into the show where i this is sort of like Walt's childhood, this is things that inspired Walt, and here's his inspiration being turned into reality, and then it cascades into Lincoln. Right. And then you go experience the rest of the park after that. That was beautiful. Just beautiful. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Pete 4:42

Yeah, I mean, make it I I really would have loved to have seen it making that part of if you really wanted to do it, you you it's like admired but not required. But for all of us history nuts or people who could really want to kind of dip their toes into that, yeah, they could literally just walk right in, go straight to there, open their whole experience at Disneyland by doing that, yeah, and then kind of zigzag back and forth across Main Street to different points of interest that could be installed that include little plaques or little vignettes or little displays that kind of help you kind of go, Oh, this was all about the days when he was here, and this is the development of the park, and this was his inspiration for this. So by the time you finally got to uh partners in the hub, yeah, you suddenly uh you know had been with Walt on this inspiration of building the park. Yeah. You know, you would go to the wall with all of the mislaid bricks, and you would go to you see the red and white light bulb, and you would go to see all these little nice little fun little details that all of us nerds love, but suddenly it all makes sense why we love it. And then you would reach partners and you and you could turn around and go, and now enjoy the rest of the park.

Kelly 5:52

Did you see, by the way, the the woman that cosplayed as the red and light white bulb?

Pete 5:56

Whoever that is, lady, you're a genius. Oh man, it was so good.

Kelly 6:00

Coca-Cola hat. Oh my god. And did you see her purse was a little mini piano?

Pete 6:05

Yes. It was so good. I never laughed harder in my life. And, you know, enjoyous rapture at a cosplay.

Kelly 6:12

It was so good. Yeah, just absolutely brilliant. I was like, uh I just want to be friends with that person. But you know, there's an interesting thing that comes out of this uh this Walt animatronic show idea that I think will play into some of the stuff we're gonna talk about a little bit later. And I know we're not ready to jump there just yet, but there seems to be a sense that Disneyland Park is being earmarked as this is the historical one. This and they're gonna make changes, of course. Of course. But yeah. Um this seems to be the the slightly more sacrosanct of parks.

Pete 6:53

I think part of that is the fact that Walt actually lived there. Yeah. You know, I mean, this was this was his baby. He actually lived there, it was his home for a time. So I think yes, there's there's a little bit of, you know, for those who are very loyal to the memory of Walt number three, as we like to refer to it. Right, yeah. Uncle Walt, you know, the memories of Uncle Walt. Um those people, and you and I are certainly among their numbers. Yeah, they do have a kind of a sense of ownership because of that. And like it, like this is sacred territory. Don't change this. Yeah. You could do anything you want to with Tomorrowland, please do something with Tomorrowland, but don't mess with this. Don't mess with that, you know.

Kelly 7:34

Well, and and and so before we get to how this might be the place where they're going to try and hold history a little more in stasis, and Florida is not. Before we get to that, was there anything else about D23 that that really struck you?

Pete 7:52

Uh well, uh one of the things was uh for all of us Marvel nerds, yeah. They started talking about the Fantastic Four. Yeah. Which is one of my favorite comic books growing up as a kid. Oh, sure. For those who don't know, I I'm gonna name drop for a minute. I I my summer internship right out of college, I was actually working for Stan the Man Lee. And you told me about this, yeah. My three greatest months of my adolescent life. It was amazing. Um, you know, it it was I turned into the frosty frosted miniweets kid, where it's just like, you know, the adult in me is like moving forward in my career, but the little kid in me is pooping my pants with excitement. I mean, I really actually did that. We went out for lunch one time, and I'm on one side of the table.

Kelly 8:36

Do you want to tell this story out loud?

Pete 8:38

Yeah, I kind of do. On one side of the table is Stan. He goes, We're gonna be meeting up with a friend of mine. I hope you don't mind. I go, Yeah, no problem, Stan. You're the boss. You meet up with whoever you like. And we were at Planet Hollywood in San Diego during San Diego Comic-Con, and in comes Lou Ferrigno. So I'm sitting at the table with the incredible Hulk and Stan Lee, and I'm just waiting for him to go, like, all right, true believer, just order some chicken wings, you know. Hello, how are you? I'm Lou Ferigno, nice to meet you. Like, oh my God, I'm turning a little kid. It's the best. Oh, that's right. I was so awestruck, I did not get either of their autographs. Oh, wow. I wanted to desperately, but I'm like, no, I want to be a pro. I don't want to be a nerd. I want to be nice, but oh my god, lunch with you know, anyway. So, but I grew up with the Fantastic Four. Yeah. And I thought of Kelly, like the minute I was watching this footage, going, Oh, please tell me Kelly is watching this. And sure enough, my phone, while I'm thinking that goes, Prince, are you watching the D23 stuff? Because I'll let Kelly tell this one.

Kelly 9:40

Inevitably, it is not an episode of the Lowdown on the Plus Up without us talking about the 1964 World's Fair, which is clearly the alpha and the omega of everything we know. Uh there was a great panel at D23. Zach, the editor of uh Boardwalk Times, was there. Terrific panel where they were discussing the fair and the influence that the fair had on the theme parks in general, but but specifically Disneyland. Um, a lot of things came out of it. It's a small world, the carousel of progress, the people mover cars, those linear induction movers.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

Yes.

Kelly 10:17

Yeah, those came out of there. The primeval world from the diorama on the on the Disneyland Railroad came out of there. Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln came out of there. Uh it was a great opportunity for Walt to develop attractions on other people's dime. And then ship it.

Pete 10:36

Basically giving all those dimes to Bob Gurr to build it all. Right. You go, Bob.

Kelly 10:40

Build us, I'm thinking about a spinny kind of car.

Pete 10:44

I'm on it. No problem. I'm on it.

Kelly 10:48

Man, I was trying to get someone to get me one of those Bob Gurr Funko Pops that they were selling there. I know. And I couldn't find anyone to do it. Come on. But so they the panel was great. And um as it went on, it was hosted by Leonard Malton. Um a lot of like uh Becky Klein, head of the archives, was there. The I believe the director of the movie Tomorrowland was there. No, no, no, I'm sorry, not not the director, who am I thinking?

Pete 11:13

I'm thinking of the art director of that was there. Yeah, I don't know that.

Kelly 11:17

Um Michael Giancini showed up at at one point. And at a certain point, uh Kevin Feige and John Favreau came out to talk about how much they were influenced by the the sort of futuristic world work of the 1964 World's Fair. Yeah. And then it just got real good. So then they're talking about how this mid-century modern uh look really influenced the film that's about to come out, which is Fantastic Four. And it's just, and like I'm just at this point giddy because I'm like, this is exactly what I want this film to be. Yeah. This is what I want all futures to be. I want them to all look like they were a Clifford Simak book with the Mary Blair color palette. And I'm in. That's what I want. And um, and you know, there's some indication that this maybe was a way that the things in the park in the future could maybe go. Um You know, my uh Pete and I were talking earlier. My theory is that if Fantastic Four does really well, and I'm really hoping it does, uh, this could be uh the Tomorrow Lend look that we've been hoping for for a long time.

Pete 12:35

Aaron Ross Powell They will finally bite the bullet and actually get rid of the rocket, you know, the the what rocket racers. Yeah, rocket rods track. Rocket rods track, you know. Of course, Bob Gerd referred to it the world's largest leaf catcher.

Kelly 12:52

It's like, oh man, that poor thing. But the greatest thing about this panel, um, I mean, that was all fantastic, but uh oh but but the greatest thing about the panel was was uh Feige and and John Fevreau talking about trying to get someone to write a world's fair kind of song for the movie Iron Man 2 for the the was it the Stark Expo, is that what it was? Yeah, yeah. And um and this great conversation where someone says, Well, we could call Dick Sherman, and Feige has the greatest thing. He just says, Can I do that? Am I allowed to call Richard Sherman? And so sure enough, he does. He calls Richard Sherman, and they they for first off, Sherman's very wary because he's like, I feel like you're trying to make fun of this kind of thing. Yeah. And they have to assure him, no, that's not what they're trying to do. They really want a sincere, like, song about pro progress and positivity. Yeah. And then they whip out this thing that no one knew existed. They had a film of Richard Sherman playing them that song for the first time. Uh-huh. Make way for tomorrow today. Oh. And it is so beautiful. And he plays the song, and they start talking afterwards. And I'm ranting now because I'm passionate about this. They start talking afterwards, and Sherman says uh something to the effect of, you're all really young, and you may not realize this, but people want this kind of positivity. They're all too cynical now, and it's not good for them. They want this. And I'm like, man, bless you, Richard Sherman.

Pete 14:44

Yeah, yeah. He is sorely missed. He is sorely, sorely missed. That type of optimism. I mean, for all my cynicism that I have, I certainly have a cynical streak. I I always have this anchor of possibility and optimism that never goes away. And honestly, that really came from the dream uh and and promise of early tomorrowland and Epcot. Yeah. And frankly, a lot of that has to do with the Sherman Brothers' music. Absolutely.

Kelly 15:18

Absolutely. I I think what you know, one of the most perfect songs I know is There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow. Yes. Absolutely perfect.

Pete 15:25

Absolutely.

Kelly 15:25

I don't know if you saw any of the Disney Legends ceremony, but uh Jamie Lee Curtis came out on stage and led the audience in a sing-along of There's a Great Big Beautiful Tomorrow.

Pete 15:35

That's fantastic.

Kelly 15:36

Yeah.

Pete 15:37

That is so cool.

Kelly 15:38

That's so great.

Pete 15:40

So I mean, this it's this approach to tomorrow that Disney is is I mean, they made tons of announcements for what is coming up in the future. Some good Oh my God. Some really amazing, like the villain's land, which I heard that, I kind of went, where was this 20 years ago? Yeah. You know, like um. But as we all know, with change and with progress comes sacrifice. Yeah. And there are some changes that are making some people kind of, you know, these days, whether it be changing um for better or for worse, Splash Mountain and T uh Tiana's adventure. Uh um, and I I can't wait to see it. I I do I'm not gonna judge it until I see it.

Kelly 16:31

Our our our good friend Paul, uh Paul Barry went to Florida for a single day. Just to see it. He flew in. Yep. He he saw the new country bear show, he rode Tiana's, he like had a meal, he went home.

Pete 16:45

Sounds about right. That sounds about right. Sounds like Paul.

Kelly 16:49

But he loved it.

Pete 16:50

Yeah, yeah. And and you know, I'm cool with change, I really am. But there are some things that I'm I'm curious to like the motivations and what we give up when we change things like this. And this is gonna lead us to our new subject because again, yeah, this is another thing that's coming up that was announced at D23 as part of part of the announcements there, and it has actually got some people riled up. And so we're gonna take an aim, set our sights on, lock and load on the subject of the shooting galleries of Disneyland and Disney World. And the the reason I mentioned this is because they are outmoding the shooting gallery in Frontierland in Disney World. It's gone. It is gone now.

Kelly 17:42

Yeah, yeah. And and this is, you know, it's interesting. Uh we we must be psychic or some sorts of super geniuses. Because hey, who's here to contradict me? So uh because we um we planned this a little while ago, and we kind of got busy and didn't record it until now, but we planned it before these Frontierland announcements were made. Yeah. Also before these Frontierland announcements were made, I wrote a long article about Frontierland.

unknown 18:12

Yeah.

Kelly 18:13

And just sort of the origins of it and when like where these ideas come from and maybe what you can do with it now. Yeah. What we are seeing is that Frontierland in the Magic Kingdom in Florida, it seems to be hanging on to its name, maybe, but it is not going to be Frontierland anymore. And the first step of that we saw was the getting rid of the Frontierland shooting gallery in that land. Um a lot of people were curious about that move. Now it starts to make a lot more sense because the frontier western aspect of the land is being kind of excised. Yeah. And with that comes the uh sort of sort of centerpiece in a lot of ways uh of that that area, certainly. Uh the rivers of America and the Liberty Bell uh riverboat are going away. They will not be there.

Pete 19:13

That's kind of weird. It's bizarre to it. That weirds me out a little bit. I mean, I mean, I get it. I get what they're gonna do. I I I I'm I'm actually kind of hopeful for what they're planning. But it has been such a staple for so long. Again, it's one of those you could just kind of go, really? You're gonna get rid of that, huh? It's bold. It is very bold.

Kelly 19:32

And I, you know, the thing that they're putting in, they're putting in what seems to be a s not a car's land, but a sort of car's mini area there, which is going to traverse from the Frontierland mainland all the way to Tom Sawyers Island, which will no longer be Tom Sawyer's Island. And there's gonna be what looks to be a pretty spectacular ride there, and and I'm sure the design's gonna be beautiful, and it weirds me out too. I I'm I'm not I'm not against repurposing Frontierland. And I'm not against repurposing Tom Sawyer's Island, but I don't understand what this is now.

SPEAKER_07 20:14

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Pete 20:16

And and I think this is this stems from America's discomfort with the wild west. Some of it, yeah. Some of it really is. I mean, your article kind of touched on that a bit. Because you asked different people, what is the what does the wild, wild west mean to you? Yeah. Good old, good old frontier. The frontier, what does that mean for you? And for some people, the first thing out of the mouth is racism. Sure. Or colonialism. Which is fair. Totally fair. Yeah. And for other people, it's like, it's the last time America was great. Right. Okay, that's fair too. Yeah. It's the last time Americans really had freedom. Yeah. Okay, I I get it. I hear ya. I hear ya, Johnny Ribb. Um, but but you know, the Wild West means so many different things to so many people.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah.

Pete 21:08

And no one can agree upon it. Yeah. And I think that actually is it spells its doom eventually.

Kelly 21:17

Yeah, well, one of the things that I talk about in that article is is the work of Frederick Turner, uh Harvard professor, who basically gave us the idea of what the West was. It was like this is what the frontier is. Yeah. Um it wasn't true. Um even Turner himself seemed to understand that later. He he stopped defending his work pr pretty quickly, actually. D didn't want to talk to people about it. Yeah. He so I even he seemed to not really buy into it. But it it was what the popular vision of the West was. It came from Turner's theory of the frontier line. And that theory just, you know, it it It has a lot of manifest destiny in it, uh, it's got a lot of the sort of populism idea of moving away from the elites and we'll forge our thing you know our our brutal independence. But it just wasn't true. Uh the and and people now generally realize that it wasn't true. So if you are going to treat Frontierland as some sort of educational piece about history, it doesn't work.

Pete 22:34

No. Well, it's the same thing. It's it's kind of I was actually talking to some of my students in one of my animation classes that I teach. Um we were talking about composition, and I brought up the Brandywine School of Painters. Yeah. And the founder of the Brandywine School was a gentleman by the name of Howard Pyle. Yeah. And Howard Pyle has a great deal of influence actually on Disneyland, more so than I think people understand. This guy was so influential even during his lifetime that uh Vincent Van Gogh once wrote a letter to his brother Theo saying, I just got this um Scribner's magazine, and I was looking through it, and there were these fantastic paintings by this guy named Howard Pyle. You have got to see his stuff. Like Van Gogh was an admirer of Howard Pyle. That's amazing. Not Howard Pyle, I'm sorry. Um uh um yeah, Howard Pyle. Yeah. Um The Brandywine School. The Brandywine School. Um, one of his students uh was uh Edward Schunover, and another one was NC Wyeth. Wow. And NC Wyeth taught his son Andrew Wyeth, and Andrew Wyeth taught his son Jamie Wyeth, who taught another person who taught another person who taught me. That's amazing. As an illustrator. So I'm I can I'm considered academically a descendant of the Brandywine school of how you draw and how you set up your sayings. And the reason I bring this up is that Pyle put out these books that he wrote and illustrated himself, and they were focused on Nights to the Round Table. You watch Sword and the Stone. It may be based off of, you know, the the ones the Future King, but actually when you look at it, it's Howard Pyle. Wow. The look of Sword and the Stone comes very much from Howard Pyle. If you look at any Robin Hood movie at all, including our, you know, Robin Hood and Little John run through the forward, even when you look at that, that's Howard Pyle. Yeah. And anything that is everything about Pirates of the Caribbean comes from Howard Pyle. Wow. You can actually see distinct pirates. There's a pirate at the well scene that is from one of Pyle's the guy who's yelling at the mayor, dunk getting dunked in the well. Where be the treasure? Yeah. That guy is based off of one of Pyle's paintings. You look at it and you go, Oh my God, it's that guy. And they even have a scene where the mayor is tied up. That whole, like all that's missing is the woman popping out of the window going, Don't be cheeking. And the reason why I bring this up is that is the same era. This is like the turn into the 20th century, 1890s into the 1915s. Yeah. That that spread of 30 years of young adult fiction and fantastical novels of adventure and the fantasy of these notions of chivalry and empowerment and that kind of stuff. And you ha and this has led me to think very deeply actually about the subject we're going to be talking about with the shooting galleries, because this kind of takes us into this. Is that these stories are meant to empower children that are only halfway through this era starting to be included in labor laws. Oh, yeah. Interesting. And, you know, suddenly they get to be kids. They don't, they're they're not just, oh, we pumped out a baby and now we can put him working in the blacking factory.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah.

Pete 26:16

It's like, no, he is going to be his own human being. He is going to be self-reliant. You know, it's this notion of compulsory education and we're going to move forward. Henry Ford needs workers, so we better educate them. You know, that kind of stuff. I'm sorry, did I go that too far? But that kind of brings up the point of the working class child getting empowerment through fantasy. Whether that fantasy comes through the morals, even if they are fantastical morals, of the code of chivalry with King Arthur or the notion of uh uh robbing from the rich and giving to the poor, which no doubt there was a lot of that type of um uh fantasy and hero worship with figures like Babyface Nelson and Bonnie and Clyde. Oh, sure. Because they had this kind of rob they were referred to as the ro as Robin Hood-like figures. Yeah. And a lot of that had to do with this popular notion of, yeah, stick it to the man because it's the working class people going, ah, someone like this, something I grew up with. Yeah. Same thing with the pirates, the romanticism of looking hot and being rock stars of the sea, when in fact the reality of piracy is really horrible. Oh, it's awful. It's awful. It's awful. There's nothing, there's nothing, there's no Jack Sperr out there. It's all these, you know, syphilis-written rapists out there.

Kelly 27:38

Well, isn't this an interesting comparison, too? Because we talk about like fr Frontierland isn't telling an accurate history. And and and and I don't say that because I mean that Frontierland is bad at all.

Pete 27:51

No, no.

Kelly 27:51

I love Frontierland. I'm right too much. Um but i it's not telling an accurate history. No. And the pirates aren't telling an accurate accurate history. No. And yet somehow we're still finding a way to work with pirates. And we're struggling to work with cowboys.

Pete 28:07

Yeah. And it's really interesting because when you really think about it, they're not that far off from each other.

Kelly 28:12

They're not. They're both living these kind of horrible existences on the planes. I mean, or in ships or whatever. Like, you know, the the truth of the frontier is far more Cormac McCarthy than it is John Wayne.

Pete 28:30

Yeah, it absolutely is. Um, and I think that you know, why I mention all of these kids' books is that these are the types of books that Walt himself would have grown up with. Absolutely. And so these notions definitely like show up at Disneyland's and even in his animated shows and and in his movies, Treasure Island and uh The Black Fox and uh Dr. Sin Alias the Scarecrow, you know, Johnny Tremain. Let me pour some pewter on my hand. Good going, Johnny. Um it's uh you know, it it it's it's these romantic notions of history rather than factual pieces of history.

Kelly 29:11

Yeah, and and you know, you can't you can't really fault Walt for what he was taught along the way. I mean, certainly you know, to talk about the frontier, like the the Frederick Turner theory was strong in the schools from for the entire time Walt was in school, yeah, and for the entire time that the Western was in absolute ascendance as movies, uh, you know, most mostly in the um like late 30s to like what early sixties. Yeah. It was strong.

Pete 29:42

People really, really believed that to be true. It well, it struck a chord. It was it was the most popular media format, yeah. I mean genre. I mean of film, uh, television, comic books. Yep, until the space race.

SPEAKER_02 29:59

Yeah, yeah.

Pete 30:00

I mean, seriously, and uh and until 1964. Yeah. Because that's when superheroes kind of came crawled out and went, you know, like it was westerns, yeah, horror comics, yeah, and then superheroes in the 50s. That was I mean, those were the popular medias for kids that they could take a quarter or a dime out of their pocket and buy themselves. Yeah. My argument would be that we see the exact same need for empowerment from the kids of the 50s, yeah. As we saw for the children of Walt's era with the romanticism, this pursuit of empowerment through fantasy. It may not be historically accurate, and its intentions might have been good, but so many people just accepted it as writ that it was like, oh, well, of course, that's the way it was, you know.

Kelly 30:50

I think I think you make such a strong point. Like there is there is a use for these kind of of elaborate fantastical conflicts. Absolutely. Um the you know, kids need this to just model triumphing over adversity.

Pete 31:08

Aaron Ross Powell, we're seeing that now with uh I mean, if you just want to stay in Disneyland, you see that in Batuu. Sure. In Galaxy's Edge. I mean, you see that, I mean, you've very, very apparent with the New Order on one side. Yep. You know, you've got three corners. You've got smugglers, you've got New Order, and you've got bounty hunters. You've got Joy Division. Yeah, and you got if only, if only that Cantina was any sort of joy division, I would have been into it. But anyway, uh, but yeah, but you see these clear, like it has moved on to space opera and fantasy rather than dipping into history because people now have such access to history that they can go, I don't need to dip, I don't need to treat this as a fantasy. I'm I'm okay with this reality of what this actually was in history, and it makes me uncomfortable, so I can't take any joy and empowerment out of that. Right.

Kelly 32:08

Below down on the plus up is the Boardwalk Times podcast. At Boardwalk Times.net, you'll find some of the most well-considered and insightful writing about the Walt Disney Company, Disney history, and the universe of theme parks available anywhere.

Pete 32:23

Come join us at BoardwalkTimes.net who have different truths and are willing to accept stuff like Galaxy's Edge. Because Star Wars, let's just look at the name. Yeah. It's about war. Yeah. It's like, wait a second, why would we want that in Disneyland? Right. And yet people go, no, no, it's not just about war, it's about fantasy. Whether you want to be a space wizard, whether you want to be a tough guy that's basically a cowboy as a bounty hunter, or whether you want to be, you know, you want to be empowered because you're going to be a stormtrooper. Right. Whatever it is, it's all about empowerment. Yeah.

Kelly 33:16

It is. It to it, you're totally right. And you know, I you know, I do want to say, I I don't know of, I did a little cursory looking, but I'm I'm not a sociologist. I uh I just play one on TV. But I I did some cursory looking to see like what what were the studies, what what does it look like as far as um violence in people who grew up playing with toy guns? Yeah. There's not much. Um there's not a whole lot of evidence that it affects things one way or the other. I do want to say if you're a parent and you have kids and you do not want your kids around guns or toy guns, absolutely I support that. 100%. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 33:59

Yep.

Kelly 34:00

Um I'm I'm interested in toy guns. Real ones freak me out. Yeah. And I do not want them.

Pete 34:06

But and as a moment of sensitivity, as Kelly and I are both parents. Yes. We do want to rem, you know, we do want to this is partly a disclaimer, but this is also a statement of sensitivity. We are not marginalizing anybody who has suffered at the hands of gun violence, either in schools or or in any other situation. Gun violence is bad, bad, bad, bad. Right. And we are not, we are not in any way condoning that. That's not a hand washing. I just realized that some of you might be listening to this and going, oh, this might be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

Yeah.

Pete 34:40

Don't worry, we're not going to dwell on it too much. Right. But we are going to approach this with a notion of, well, as we usually do, a historical take on it, and we will do a plus up at the end of this that might solve some of these problems. Right. So just wanted to be sensitive to all of you listening out there. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Kelly 34:56

I think, you know, in in 2001, and you probably ran across this during research too. In 2001, the California legislature passed a law that said that all toy guns must be made in such a way that they cannot be mistaken for real guns. That is the law in California. That is why, if you would ever do see toy guns in store, which you don't much anymore, but if you do see them, that is why they are usually bright orange.

Pete 35:22

I remember growing up in the 80s, this is when Rambo was an animated show for kids. Jesus. Yeah. You know, along with Mr. T, you know, it's like, wow, this was a good idea.

unknown 35:37

Yeah.

Pete 35:38

Uh, you know, Sergeant Slaughter on G.I. Joe, you know. Um, they I remember playing with a squirt gun that was a motorized Uzi that came with clips that you would fill up with water. And so you would, and you, and it would and it would be shooting little jets of water. But it was the exact same size. The and I, being the weird little kid that I was, I found a tube of my grandfather's rubber buff, which is like this metallic paint, and I dry brushed it, making it look even more realistic. Oh, geez. Yeah. I was a real smart 10-year-old, let me tell you. Um, and sure enough, a cop actually slowed down. And like, is that real? And I went, no, it's a squirt gun. And and I never played with it afterwards because I realized how close I was to getting in trouble with the cops because they were nervous because there there had been a controversy where a kid was shot playing with one of these things.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah.

Pete 36:38

And um, and that's when I kind of realized, like, why do we play with guns? And I never played I never played guns after that, ever. Yeah. That was that one moment. I was like, I was totally into it, and then I was suddenly not. I think it was that moment.

Kelly 36:53

Um, once the guns became real for you. Oh, yeah. Like a a authority figure accused your toy of being real, and then it's no longer. Yeah, suddenly it wasn't fun.

Pete 37:05

Yeah. I couldn't go bang bang, you're you're dead now. I I just couldn't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't do it. I wasn't interested. I mean, I even got rid of my G.I. Joe's. Like I I just couldn't, I just couldn't like I could deal with fantasy war toys like Star Wars or He Man and the Masters of the Universe, which I became obsessed over. Yeah. And I think it's because I gave up on, you know, I had tons of G.I. Joe stuff. Right. And because they were neat. The vehicles were cool, you know, you had Zartan, it would change color in the in the in the sun. That's cool. But I just instant it was like instant, like, no, give me fantasy. That's fine. Yeah. Because you're not going to get shot by a cop carrying a plastic He-Man sword. Right. Right? You know, so but you still get the same empowerment. Yeah. Which is it's gonna be a word I'm gonna keep using tonight because I I really think that there's um there's something to this. There's a need. There's a need. Yeah. And so when Walt built Disneyland, yeah, I think he had the same thing in mind with a lot of his worlds. It wasn't just, oh boy, this is neat. I think he actually was really trying to give people an escape. And when we talk about escapism, most people go like, oh, an escape, I'm gonna sit on a beach and drink a Mai Thai. Right. Walt introduced something with a theme park in which, no, we're gonna immerse you in this world. Yeah. Well, why would you do that? That doesn't make sense. It's like we're gonna put you in the jungle. I don't want to go to the jungle. Well, you really think about it. No, I really don't. Yeah, I do. Why? Because it's cool, because I feel empowered. Like I'm gonna have an adventure. I'm gonna be empowered.

Kelly 38:40

Yeah, you you get, and we've talked about this before. You you get to have the triumph, you get to face a fear in a very safe way, you get to triumph over it, and then you get to move on with that kind of in your little satchel of like I did this, I can, I can beat this fear.

Pete 38:58

Yep. And so when Walt opened up Disneyland in 1955, you could walk down Main Street, yeah, and right where the Gibson girl is now, yeah, there was a real, honest to God, air rifle shooting gallery. Yeah, yeah. And there's pictures of like these beautiful girls like sitting on the counter.

Kelly 39:23

I saw that and I was like, that is the greatest picture. I'm like, what were these things?

Pete 39:30

Boom, you know, like what? And it was like a standard carnival style and a pool of water in it. Yeah. I think it's to prevent ricochets. And it's kind of it looks cool, but I think it's also to prevent, you know, the lead pellets because they would shoot lead pellets at metal targets.

Kelly 39:48

Well, let me let so that that is the first shooting gallery. Yep. Um, and uh, do you know what kind of gun it is? It's a Winchester, isn't it? That's right. That's a good one. It's a Winchester Model 62A gallery gun. Oh, wow. Is what the main street gun was. But let me let me back up a little bit. Oh yeah. Um Paul McGlashan. Okay. This is the guy, uh McGlashin Enterprises is the company that built all of those shooting galleries.

Pete 40:22

Huh.

Kelly 40:24

And um uh to uh I'll give you a quick look into the future. In 1969, the Walt Disney Company buys McGlashin Enterprises. But um and kind of lets them keep operating independently weirdly. But Paul McGlashin is an interesting character. Okay. So I know nothing of him, so please elucidate. Super interesting. Okay. So in the 1930s, McGlashin started uh b basically building shooting galleries. But at the time, the the technology was completely new. They were just making it up as they go along. You can find pictures, uh, because a few of them still exist, of some of his original guns that he made for shooting galleries. The earliest ones you would didn't put ammo in, you put nickels. Oh my god. And it was shoot nickels at the targets. Oh my god. And then if you did a certain thing with the targets, you would get some sort of prize, and guess what? The people who ran the gallery got to keep the nickels. You know, I kind of see the practicality of that. Yeah, no, there's a brilliance to it. I kind of like that, you know? Okay. So he starts working on uh building different kinds of shooting galleries. He's just what he's interested in. He does it up until the war starts, and he sees this interesting need. So by this point, he's starting to use air-compressed uh BB guns, basically, for shooting galleries. He realizes that it is cost prohibitive, it will be a drain on the army or the Air Force at this point to actually practice being a gunner with real guns and ammo. Ammo costs money.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yeah.

Kelly 42:03

Right? And you use a lot of it when you're a plane gunner. Oh, yeah. Right? So he builds these air-run BB turrets for gunners to practice with. Wow. Yeah, it's amazing. So so he works with the the US government. He builds these things, is he supposedly builds some for ships too, but I didn't see a whole lot of record of that. But he built guns to emulate being one of those bubble gunners that rides on the bottom of the plane. The ones who, if the landing gear doesn't come out, you're in a heck of a lot of trouble.

Pete 42:36

I've I've seen that episode of Amazing Stories.

Kelly 42:38

I know very well. Sure, I listened to enough Pink Floyd albums. Yeah. Sorry, Raj. Sorry, Casey. But uh so he built this thing for them to train with. Yeah. Uh uh for for cheap. And he built a target like range for them to do. Wow. And it's referred to in a Steinbeck book. What? Here, let me read you this great quote. Oh, please. This is from uh Bombs Away, the story of a bomber. Do I need a glass of whiskey to suggest this?

unknown 43:09

Okay, go ahead.

Kelly 43:10

Uh so Steinbeck actually in this is it's a nonfiction book. He embedded himself with uh a bomber team in the war. Wow. He says uh at a gunnery school there is constant practice. The compressed air BB guns were in use all the time. There is a shooting gallery, only very much larger than any private shooting gallery. Mounted at intervals are little machine guns which operate by compressed air. They fire streams of BB shot at moving targets. The targets are little planes which move rapidly across a blue background, but when they are hit, they fall backwards. These guns are in use all the time. The gunners are encouraged to use the constant shooting of these guns, to use them whenever they are free. And although the little guns do not fire at a very high velocity, nor do the planes move very fast, the constant shooting Of these guns develops the shooter's eye, making him aware of a moving target and how to lead it. He learns here not to not fire a constant stream and let the plane run into it, but to fire in bursts so that each shot takes effect. It is said that when the gunnery students go to town, they head first for a shooting gallery, shoot at ducks and moving pipes and clowns' heads, that they spend their money on cartridges in private shooting galleries.

Pete 44:30

Okay. That's wild. Isn't that crazy? That is why and I've I've it's interesting you mention that. Yeah. Because that actually takes us into the history of the carnival shooting range. Yes. And why they died. Okay. Okay. Okay, so little deep dive. Here's here's Pete Overstreet's deep dive. We talked about empowerment, and I'll and we'll get back to what's McGlash. Paul McGlash. Paul McGlasshan. We'll get back to him in just a second here. Well, not a second, it'll be a couple of minutes, so no worries. Rabasoda, folks. Okay. Shooting galleries have a history of uh playing a part of empowerment with the working class for hundreds of years. There has always been some sort of knockover game. Yeah. Whether it be uh well, even earlier, whether you have Skittles or ninepins or you know, bowling. One of the greatest uh Skittles players ever, apparently, during the 18th century, was a man born without arms or legs. Whoa. His name was and he was also one of the world's greatest calligraphers. He did a portrait, self-portrait of himself using, and when you look closely at it, all the shading is done with little words and it spells out the Lord's Prayer over and over again. And he was also a very accomplished magician. He could do the cups and balls routine perfectly, apparently. And apparently he didn't have arms or legs? He'd had no arms or legs. He basically had like little flippers, basically. Okay. And he fathered 14 children. His name was Matthias Buchinger, the little man of Nuremberg. Wow. And he was world famous for being a Skittles player. So that there's my obscure history drop there for a minute. But even earlier, there's right around Shakespeare's time, and we don't have many other records because uh Seapart where's the Dark Ages. Yes. Um the even though there have been knockover games, they're very, very similar. You toss a ball or a rock at some sort of effigy to knock it over. And this pastime is so old, and it always ties to some sort of lower class shooting upward at the upper class. Yeah. Interesting. In the 1973 version of the Musketeers directed by Richard Lester, starring Michael York, Christopher Lee, the mighty Christopher Lee, as uh Count Rochefort is playing a game that is historically accurate. And they actually used to have a version of this at Renaissance fairs in which they have these polished wooden balls. They bring them out, you know, peasant bring them out this basket, and you lay bets on how many uh things you can knock over, and there were these big flats and there were cutouts of upper class men and women. And you just toss the ball at them, and they're propped up with a stick, and you hit them enough times until they fall over. And it's literally just called Lords and Ladies. Yeah. And so you're playing Lords and Ladies, and you throw it at them, and the ball runs back downhill towards you, so you get to collect the ball. And it was a betting game, but it was meant for peasants as a way to take out their aggressions against their landlords, their masters, and the people lording over them.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

Yeah.

Pete 47:49

And over time, they would start developing new ways of throwing things at them. Uh-huh. And eventually, right around the time of the matchlock. Okay. What's the matchlock? A matchlock is the grandfather of the flintlock. So the flintlock is you have a piece of flint held with a little arm, and um it it when you pull the trigger, it comes down and it hits a striking pad that flips forward, and as it flips forward, it reveals a little pan full of gunpowder. Right. And the spark shoots down at the gunpowder, and the gunpowder ignites and shoots into the barrel where there's another charge of gunpowder, thus shooting the ball out of the musket. Yeah. The match lock operates similar to that, but instead of the flint, you have this constantly burning fuse that's smoking next to your head. And when you pull it, the fuse goes down into the gunpowder.

Kelly 48:43

Oh, okay.

Pete 48:44

Okay, so this is an older version. They would actually start shooting at, and this was developed by the Musketeers themselves of uh Louis XIV. Yeah. Uh as a way to take on the Cardinals' men. They would shoot at Jesuits and things cut out some Jesuits and things. And eventually guns became romanticized because of this, because of the Musketeers. And you actually started seeing, you know, you couldn't afford, but you could have crossbows, you could have archery and stuff at at fairs. You also had people knocking over coconuts, hence the song I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts. Uh but you don't really see shooting galleries at fairs the way that we know them, with the little bunny rabbits and the duckies with the targets painted on them.

SPEAKER_06 49:36

Yeah.

Pete 49:37

Until about 1810, St. Bart's Fair in England, when you actually start seeing and and in Germany, Germany, they're very, very popular because Germany is a big hunting country. They love hunting.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Yeah.

Pete 49:50

Um and so it's a way, again, to hone your skills and for hunters to show off their prowess with a rifle.

SPEAKER_03 49:57

Right.

Pete 49:58

And uh they would have these big metal-backed tents with this, you know, setup, and you'd be shooting at metal targets. Yeah. In the 1820s, they would be shooting at clay pipes. They would put little clay pipes in rows and you would shoot the clay pipes out as your target. Or you would actually have metal animals and cutouts of fools and bears and things like that. There was an industrious fellow in the 1830s whose name escapes me at the moment, who actually developed the first mechanically triggered um it was called the the rabbit in the hole target. And what it was, the mouse in the hole. Okay. Um it's a mouse in a hole. And what it is, it's a cutout of a woman that's spring-loaded. Uh-huh. And she's got her hands holding her skirt. Yeah. Very sexist. And she's looking at the stump. You know, this this tree stump. And the target's on the tree stump. And when you hit the target in the tree stump, it triggers a spring in her and she goes, eek, and she lifts her skirt up so you can see her ankles, and a little mouse pops up. And it's like a it's kind of like a uh whirly gig type mechanism. Yeah, yeah. And that's the first mechanically triggered target in a German uh fair shooting gallery. This is the 1820s. Yeah. And with the rise of the Civil War and the Wild West, when when it becomes a uh a constant tool, you start seeing shooting galleries, traveling shooting galleries where they had these huge carts with metal sides on them because it was to prevent the bullets from going through. Yeah. An excellent example is Back to the Future 3, in which Marty shows off his shooting skills at a shooting gallery. Yeah. That's a pretty accurate depiction of some of these traveling shooting galleries. Yeah. And it became a way for these firearms dealers to sell guns. Give it a try, check it out. Now get the real thing. Try a Winchester. Right. The Winchester Rifle Corporation did a lot of business this way. Yeah. So when we get to the 20s, it's evolving, right? You get more and more elaborate with your shooting galleries, and it becomes a constant. Whether you're shooting the star out with the BB guns, with with with and that came out of the invention of the Thompson. That was the Tommy gun. The Tommy gun. Yeah. The Tommy gun because you have to be able to go br and be able to have controlled bursts. Yeah. Because you don't just sit there and, you know, if you really, for all you carnies out there, if you want to shoot the star out, short bursts. Don't just go to town on it. Yeah. Short little burst and carve it out.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

Yeah.

Pete 52:39

Uh and you start with the top one, you you go from outside in, you don't go inside out. Yeah. Anyway, so all you I'm sorry, all you people who still run the star gag. I just ruined it for you. But that came out of machine guns to sell machine guns, shoot the star out. Yeah. Because you're using BBs. Yeah. And then the BB gun became popular, you know, you'll shoot your eye out. Daisy Corporation, the Daisy Rifle, etc. It all be and you'd be able to like buy home targets with the Daisy rifle. And then we get to the 40s, yeah. And the and the war happens. Right. Right. And then you have all these servicemen and women who are getting out and they've been practicing and they get so good at it. Yeah. The carnies go, we can't make money. They're winning all the time. Yeah. I can't, we can't. The object is to not let them win. So that's when you start seeing squirt the water in the clown's mouth and burst the balloon. Do this in a much more controlled, gaffed manner. Yeah. As opposed to a free-for-all with an actual rifle.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Yeah.

Pete 53:48

And they kind of die out in the 50s.

Kelly 53:51

Yeah.

Pete 53:51

Except evidently at Disneyland. Except at Disneyland, which starts off as a nostalgia thing. So that's it's interesting you mentioned the whole thing with the servicemen practicing and going to town. Because I went, oh, well, that's exactly where I was going to go with the end of this history of the carnival style shooting gallery.

Kelly 54:08

It's so it's so interesting because it seems like McGlashin might have been the person who was just carrying the whole industry on his back for a while. He came out of World War II. He did not like working with the military. Uh I found an interview with his daughter, actually. Oh wow. To talked about how he thought it was a bureaucratic nightmare. He thought most of the people he dealt with were really lazy, which is interesting because it was World War II. You'd think they'd be busy.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

Right.

Kelly 54:53

And became friends with it, started designing something. I gather his daughter came to him and was like, you know, all those places that you used to design for. They specifically mentioned a um some sort of some amusement park called The Punch, but I don't know what that was. Oh, now I want to know. I do too. I think he lived in Southern California, so it was somewhere there, probably. But um, and she she mentioned the punch, and she was like, it's an awful place. It's just a dive, don't do that. And he was like, no, no, no. This guy, Walt Disney, he's he's gonna make a nice place. It's gonna be great. You're gonna you're gonna love it. And so they started to to get back to where we started this part of the conversation. Uh he put in the first uh gallery at on Main Street, which didn't uh it didn't last a super long time. Yeah. But the the Main Street shooting gallery, which only lasted till like 1962, uh partially because there weren't very many guns.

Pete 55:52

So so yeah, there were very it was very like limited. So like it actually caused backups because people wanted to have their their go at it.

Kelly 55:59

Right. And and purportedly Walt was not crazy about that noise on Main Street. Uh so they got rid of it. And but then the next one that came up was the big one, the one that's still there now. Yep. Which is the uh at the time, I think it was called the Frontierland Shooting Gallery. Now it's called the Frontierland Shooting Exposition, uh, which opened in 1956. Yep. Still open today. Uh still there. They uh uh when when it opened, uh much like the with the Main Street one and the one to follow this, it shot uh 22 caliber iron pellets. And so so the it this had a whole bunch of problems. Uh the cool thing about it was that you know you would get this nice ping noise as it hit the tin targets that were moving around. Right.

SPEAKER_02 56:57

Yep. It's supposed to sound, yeah.

Kelly 56:59

Yeah, exactly. It was it was cool. Uh the downside is that they, you know, the people that work there had to load the guns every time. Yeah. Uh over and over and over again. Occasionally there were ricochets. People would kind of get zinged by them. Occasionally, other customers would get zinged by them.

Pete 57:17

Uh well, because the other part is when they first opened these, yeah, you could aim the gun 360 degrees.

Kelly 57:24

That's right. It will it was a while before they said, you know, maybe we've got to cage these in a little bit. And yeah, and so they would shoot these pellets, and the pellets would take a toll on the targets. Yep. And so the targets had to be repainted every single day. Every day. There was a special paint cart that they would wheel out at like five in the morning and go repaint all of the targets. Oh, dude. Um, which is super impressive if you think about that kind of quality control. Like is there any place else in the world that would go to that much trouble?

Pete 58:07

I don't know. I mean, there's somebody, I'm sure, who's like regretting it with mesothelinoma or something like that. Yeah. You know.

Kelly 58:16

Well, the pellets were lead, that couldn't be good for you.

Pete 58:18

Well, they were they were forgetting because it is lead, you know. Yeah. It's taking over their memories.

Kelly 58:24

But by the way, the um I I found I know what kind of gun that is, too.

SPEAKER_02 58:28

Yeah.

Kelly 58:29

It is a replica of the 54 caliber Buffalo Hawken rifle. It was a hunting rifle known sometimes as the Plains rifle and the Buffalo gun and the fur trapper's gun.

Pete 58:41

My father owns an actual working one.

Kelly 58:44

That's so cool.

Pete 58:45

So when I were when I first saw him as a kid, I'm like, Dad, this is like yours. He goes, Yeah, but this one's safe. Yeah. We actually took it boar hunting one time.

unknown 58:54

Really?

Pete 58:55

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And when you fired things, I mean, I'm gonna sound like a gun nut, but I'm actually more about historical replicas and that kind of stuff. But we did, I was 12, my dad took me boar hunting, and he fired it. You could actually hear the bullet zing through the air after you fired. You could actually hear like we didn't we didn't kill anything with it. We took a pot, the boar ran away, yeah, and that was it. We kind of went, well, that was our big moment. Yeah, we were not minute men. We couldn't reload, like it's gonna take 10 minutes to reload this thing. We were not good at it. But we took a shot at it, but you could hear it. John Houston'd it. Yeah. Although okay, this is a gun-nut story. Uh we did take it to a shooting uh a shooting range. Yeah. I think it was out in Livermore or something. And it was open air, and you could buy old bowling pins and bowling balls to use as targets. And it was like it was one of those target ranges where it's like you can shoot whatever you want. You want to bring in the R15, we don't care. Just don't shoot anybody with it, we're good. You know, gun safety 100%. They had Marshalls the whole nine yards, but as long as you're being safe, you can fire whatever firearm you want, and you're firing up against this huge hillock of gravel, so as the backing. And so they would, you know, the bell would ring, everybody sets up their targets, and my dad bought a bowling ball. Uh-huh. This old bowling ball and a couple of bowling pins. And there were these guys who were really way too macho, you know, they have their pythons, and we're gonna shoot targets. And we're out there with all of our black powder, and my dad's loading his planes rifle, and he's ramming it, and this guy goes, This guy's got an antique. You know, and they're taking pot shots and they're not hitting their target. They're just more there to make noise and be macho. Yeah. And my dad calmly looks at them, lifts it up, and he cocks it. He says, What are you gonna do with that? And I think he said something a little derogatory. What are you gonna do with that, old man? And my dad just took very slow aim carefully. And I went, he fired it, and it split the bowling ball in half. And the bowling ball parts went one way and they knocked, and it zinged so fast, it knocked over all of their bowling pins. Wow. Whoa! And he goes, 56 caliber, baby. And you know, blows. This thing must have been so loud. It it um it's very, very loud. Yeah. Black powder, you do not mess with it, and you really have to wear ear protection. Yeah. I I fired it once without, and I regret it to this day. Yeah. My ears are still ringing from it. Yeah. But that's why when I go, like when you and I went to Disneyland, yeah. I don't know if you noticed when I was there, it's like I'd hit everything, you know, every single time. Yeah. Not just because it's pretty darn easy. It's not that hard. It's not that hard. But I would like to think that I actually got really good at sighting targets with that thing because I had practiced with that very type of rifle. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's it's like this nostalgia thing of like, it's like my dad's, you know. It's like, so it's really, really fun. The planes rifles are really actually beautiful. Yeah. And I think the reason why they chose that is because of a television show that was very, very popular, Davy Crockett. Davy Crockett. Good old Davy Crockett.

Kelly 1:02:06

And and and Davy Crockett himself had a sort of little mini shooting gallery at one point. But it was really more of an arcade game. It was it was different. Yeah.

Pete 1:02:15

I mean it had like the little glass panel with the back, you know, it would look like a pinball machine. Right.

Kelly 1:02:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like like a little uh, you know, a bear or something would duck out from behind a tree.

Pete 1:02:25

And I remember being a kid and actually, you know, when my first trip, really liking it. Yeah. It was really, really fun, but you know, it gets old really quick.

Kelly 1:02:34

So I I I have a question for you, and I honestly don't know the answer to this. I was racking my brain, but may maybe you do. So the the Frontierland Shooting Gallery, or exposition as it's now called, uh it's so you're shooting over uh the Booth Hill Cemetery. Yep. Right from Tombstone, Arizona. Yep. Um is this the only place in Frontierland that's actually pegged to a real world location? Because that's a real place. It doesn't look like the shooting gallery, but there really is the Boot Hill Cemetery at Tombstone, Arizona. Yeah. And I I started thinking, I was like, is this the only thing or the only place in Frontierland that is a real physical place? Obviously, there's no real Rainbow Ridge. No.

Pete 1:03:29

Isn't there some sort of reference to like the fort? You know, the log fort or anything like that.

Kelly 1:03:33

Yeah, the fort's called Fort Wilderness. I mean, it's just made up, yeah.

Pete 1:03:37

The gate that leads out of the hub, that that's called Fort Wilderness.

Kelly 1:03:40

Oh, that gate? I don't know. Um I'm not sure.

Pete 1:03:43

I mean, because you've got, you know, for a time they had like the cannons and stuff, you know, uh until they got rid of them. I don't think they're there anymore. There's a lot of barrels and pin traders there, but Yeah.

Kelly 1:03:54

Well, and you used to have guns at the fort on Tom Sawyer's Island, which is Fort Wilderness. Yeah. They used to have guns that you could kind of shoot from the turrets, though they didn't do much. Yeah. And cannons, too, that you just kind of point a little bit. Yeah. And they took those out because in well, there's a couple of reasons. Fort Wilderness was uh made from real logs. Yeah. And so after a certain amount of time, it was starting to show its age. And a and this is really sad, a a six-year-old girl lost part of her finger in one of the guns in like 2001. She had her hand in the gun, she fell. Oh and they closed down the guns after that, and then they pretty much closed down Fort Wilderness altogether. But in Florida, the fort that's on their Tom Sawyers Island for a little while longer, um, which is now called Fort Langhorn, uh, but was originally called Fort Clemens. Uh, but they changed it for because they had put out a movie the 90s, early 2000s called Tom and Huck.

Pete 1:05:04

Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kelly 1:05:05

And in that movie, they go to a place called Fort Langhorn.

Pete 1:05:07

Okay.

Kelly 1:05:08

So they changed the name. But there are still guns there, and you can aim them, and they actually make a noise. Like you pull the trigger, you can you can shoot at the haunted mansion, you can shoot at the riverboat, you can shoot at a lot of things. Uh nothing comes out, obviously. No, but still. But it makes a little like noise when you do it. Okay. And they're still there, still operating. This month at Boardwalk Times, we're deep into the D23 news. Also, take a look at my article about the origins and potential future of Frontier Land. Come check it all out at BoardwalkTimes.net.

Pete 1:06:18

Ranching away from the frontier a little bit because the popularity of the shooting galleries expands to other lands, apparently.

Kelly 1:06:28

Yeah, fairly fairly quickly. In 1962, we get the uh Adventureland Safari shooting gallery, which the big game shoot. Yeah, it became big game shooting gallery and big game shoot. It was like we don't even have time to have a full title. We got pulled the trigger.

unknown 1:06:48

Big game shoot.

Pete 1:06:49

For those of you who are trying to figure out where this was, this is in between uh trader the the Traders uh store and the uh the uh Bingo barbecue.

Kelly 1:07:00

Yeah, it's kind of that sit-down place in in between. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Pete 1:07:03

Which used to be like the big Indiana Jones store for a long time.

Kelly 1:07:06

Right. Yeah. It's in that alcove. And uh that was evidently the first one where they said, you know what, we need to put a wire hoop so that they people can't move the guns around so much. Yeah. Because like as you point out, like they could literally take the guns and just point it at each other if they wanted to. Oh, yeah. Um lot of sibling rivalries were settled at that time. Hopefully, I I I didn't see any record of anyone ever actually getting shot by one of those things. And they were only sort of dummy lead pellets. I mean, it was certainly a sting, yeah.

Pete 1:07:41

Yeah, it was certainly smart, but oh my gosh.

Kelly 1:07:44

That one, uh that shooting gallery was uh known for having the most variety of targets of any shooting gallery in the United States. Wow. And you see you see sometimes Oh, that's great. Pete's showing me a cool picture of it. I love that there's that big lake between you and the targets.

Pete 1:08:04

I know. I know it's it's fabulous, like this bubbling, you know, it's supposed to be like this jungle river, and you've got you've got a tiki that you could shoot at. You've got this elephant with its trunk that you're trying to hit, you've got you know, tigers, and they're all kind of like these rudimentary mechanicals, you know, and then there's crocodiles in the water that you can shoot. Right. Making the splashes in the water.

Kelly 1:08:26

And you and you can find the like those targets show up for auction from time to time. Yeah. Uh and and people buy them because there were so many of them. They're all kind of you know old and rusty at this point, but still cool. Still cool, yeah.

Pete 1:08:39

You just have to paint them every day.

unknown 1:08:40

Yeah.

Pete 1:08:42

Just take care of them, people. Just paint them every day.

Kelly 1:08:45

They uh that place lasted till what, 1982?

Pete 1:08:49

Yes, and I actually have memories of this one. Do you? Oh, yeah. I remember this very well. When I saw that picture of it, I'm like, I remember it, I can smell the chlorine. Yeah. And they used to have like jungle sounds like the classic Disney elephant. And they had you know, the jungle drums and the whole line yards. But yeah, you'd you'd shoot and boosh you'd hit the water. Yeah. And I seem to remember being very little and having more fun shooting the water and making it splash than actually hitting targets and really pissing my father off. Like wasting my uh he's having fun. That's enough. You know, like he walked me away, like, that's enough. Like you're not doing it right. You're not doing it right. We go on we'll go on the jungle cruise now.

Kelly 1:09:33

So I know uh the that one closed down before the advent of the infrared rifles. Yes. So that one was always the lead pellets. Yep. I have a note that it was like the artwork was designed by Sam McKim.

Pete 1:09:50

Wow. Yeah. I had no idea.

Kelly 1:09:51

Yeah, really interesting. After that, we ended up with the Davy Crockett arcade, which was only kind of an arcade, and that only lasted for about two years. Just it was way too late for the Davy Crockett um fad, which because it happened in 85. Uh oh, backing up, 1971, the Frontierland shooting arcade in Walt Disney World opened. Yes.

Pete 1:10:16

And also, we'll pause here for just a second. There was a time in which there was a gun store in Disneyland.

Kelly 1:10:22

That's right. Though it was only replicas, because I saw the same thing. Yeah. I looked, I was like, what?

Pete 1:10:28

Yeah. It was only replicas, but there was a time on Main Street you could buy replicas of guns.

Kelly 1:10:35

Right. There was like a museum of antique guns, and then next door you could buy replicas. Um, it didn't last for very long. I had never actually, you know, I say that, it actually did. It lasted for like 30 years. Yeah.

Pete 1:10:49

Like 1956 to 1986.

Kelly 1:10:51

Yeah.

Pete 1:10:52

Um, that's that's kind of like the place where you would go to get your Davy Crockett cap guns as well. Like the kids, they would have a rack in the front, and then the parents would go, wow, look at these deltin flint locks and look at these, you know, Wild West things. And let's go to the magic shop and you know, rob rob Steve Martin or whatever.

Kelly 1:11:09

Do you do you have any memory of this gun shop? I didn't.

Pete 1:11:12

I did not. Yeah. I don't remember that one. I don't think because again, see part where I I I apart from the shooting galleries, I wasn't much of a gun kid. Right. I mean, I know I've just told some stories about guns. That was more of my teens and my more of my history interest uh in like pirates and stuff like that. Yeah. But um no, I don't remember that one.

Kelly 1:11:33

My my next and and I had no memory of this at all. And but I must have seen it at some point. But in Disney World, this is my my the next one that I ran across, the Fiesta Fun Center shooting gallery. Whoa. Yeah, which was attached to the contemporary the the hotel. Huh. This this was I I didn't know anything about this. I must have seen it at some point. But this was a it was basically a giant arcade. Uh-huh. Um, with with like uh I mean a giant arcade in the hotel. Uh it also had it was weird, it had a movie theater that sometimes was included in the price, but sometimes it was like a dollar, and you know, you go in and go see Tron. Like a black hole. Right. And um you could there were some some days where you went in and you just kind of dropped your kids off there and you paid a fee, and there was just like food constantly being served that they could just take. Um Wow. Yeah, there was uh often an illustrator doing caricatures there. Probably Roy. Probably Roy. Roy Williams. Roy. Big mousketeer. Yeah. Uh and it was and while he was drawing, it was being projected on the wall so you could see him do it. That's cool. And um and it had this arcade. It was again a McLashan arcade. It was it it w it was this strange mishmash of styles. Like there'd be a Western thing and a fantasy thing. There's there's like some some what looked to be kind of animatronics.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:11

Yeah.

Kelly 1:13:12

And they probably weren't exactly animatronics, but there were things that looked like they might have been modeled on some of the America Sings characters. There was like a scared cat from that looked like it came out of the haunted mansion. Uh, there were frogs that that kind of looked like they might have belonged in the jungle cruise somewhere. And this is one of the interesting things about what happened with the McGlasian company, because like I said, Disney bought the company in 1969, but allowed them to pretty much run independently. Um they just, you know, they when they needed a shooting gallery, they would go to McGlashin. So they would design this stuff with McGlasian and put it in. And then McGlashon would often take the design shooting galleries and start selling them to like Cedar Fair and Six Flags and There was one of them.

Pete 1:14:01

I'm I'm looking at pictures right now of the Fun Center, and I recognize some of these gags from Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk shooting galleries. Yeah. Yeah. 100% like the helicopter, they have like little model helicopters that would fly around. There's the pirate that's drinking in the barrel. Right. And there's like a croc a smiling crocodile that looks very much out of America things. Yeah. You know. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I totally recognize this.

Kelly 1:14:27

And there was there was some question because often you would get characters that in in the shooting galleries that were so Disney-like that you would be like, why is this here? Why is this at Six Flags or whatever? And it's just because they developed it with the Disney guys and then carp and copied it all around the the world. Yeah. The shooting gallery lasted from 77 to 95. The actual Fun Center stayed open for a little longer. And in in 95, they kind of swapped out the shooting gallery to be more like ticket-based games, like you do at Chuck E. Cheese. And then weirdly, Florida a little bit later decided to ban bingo halls. Like there was some weird anti-gambling thing that they were doing. They banned bingo halls and Disney, I guess, to get in front of what they thought was a coming sort of scourge of this sort of thing, got rid of all of their arcade games that had ticket payback.

Pete 1:15:24

Oh, okay. Games of chance, yeah.

Kelly 1:15:27

Okay. So they at that point the the fun center was on its way out.

Pete 1:15:31

I was surprised they didn't put it on the Mark Twain over there.

Kelly 1:15:33

You know, have like, you know, riverboat gambling.

Pete 1:15:35

That'd be awesome. Wouldn't that be? Well, if you should get tickets, it's on the river. Yeah.

Kelly 1:15:38

Let's be illicit, you know. Um interestingly enough, there is one shooting gallery left that you can, a Disney shooting gallery that you can win prizes at. Really? It's in Tokyo. It is the Western Land shooting gallery. Okay. Which opened in 83. It's still open now. Um it is a full, it's like a saloon. Oh, nice. And it's it's interesting when you look at it because it's not like a miniature saloon, like, you know, you look at the boot hill in in the Frontierland gallery. Yeah. That's all miniaturized. Um, there's like a full-size bartender guy standing there. Wow. And uh you just shoot stuff in the bar. Nice. And if you do well enough, you can win a sheriff's badge with Donald on it.

Pete 1:16:28

Oh my god, I want to go to Japan now. Just to do that. Just to get because for those who don't know, Donald is my favorite Disney character. I am a massive Donald Duck fan. Yeah. And I want one. eBay, here I come. Um that's awesome. So when did they make the transition from the lead pellets in Frontierland to the uh laser light and now you know infrared and now laser approach? When did that happen?

Kelly 1:16:55

That was in 1984. Okay. So McGlashon had started experimenting with that in 79. Uh, but it took them a while to kind of get it going. And in 84, and at that point at Disneyland, the Frontierland uh shooting gallery was the only one left. But they implemented it then. And and I am sure there are a bunch of painter guys who are like very thankful.

Pete 1:17:18

Yeah. Thank God. I don't have to inha inhale these fumes anymore. Right. Yeah. The stupid little elephant again. Jeez.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:28

So up.

Pete 1:17:31

I think that's why that kind of has that mid-century look because it's also very easy to just slop some paint on it and just go done. Yeah. Yeah, I I have a love for the infrared target shooting galleries now. I mean, don't get me wrong. Yes, I've had the opportunity in my youth to shoot these lead pellet things and to do the shooting the star out of the paper thing at Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk. I don't know if they still do that anymore, but they used to. But I love the one at Disneyland. When you and I went on our trip earlier this year, yeah, uh, I I dropped like about $10 into that thing. Yeah. Because that's, you know, like I should be like, I'm gonna get in in line for you know, rise the resistance, or I'm gonna get in line for the jungle. No, I'm gonna shoot targets. Yeah. Because I want to see the ghosts go across the sky, or I want to see the little mine car go in and out of the mine and blow stuff up. Yeah. I want to see the hand come out of the grave and try to grab the bottle, you know, all these dumb little gags. Yeah. It's I mean, but that harkens back to that clever German fellow who made the little mouse with the skirt popping up. Right. Because there's something very that there's a whimsy to it that I think people enjoy more so than just shooting the target with a bang, ding, right kind of approach to it. And I think that is translated to other attractions throughout the park. Yeah. Uh including the Buzz Lightyear ride, yeah. The Toy Story ride, where it's you know, you put on your 3D glasses and you're shooting. You know, it's it's a different type of infrared marker, but it is essentially a shooting gallery where the gallery is around you, but you're just aiming at a screen. Right. Or you're aiming at target in Buzz Lightyear, you're actually riding through a shooting gallery, which is a nice approach. So it's just kind of cool. Yeah. And then you know, the Toy Story ride in which you're on these weird, spinny things that make you want to throw up and wearing three glasses and you're shooting Mr. Potato Head. You know, that one's okay. It's not my favorite, but that's you know, I I get it. Some people just love that one. Yeah. And and now it is expanded even further to where you are basically riding in a video game on the Millennium Falcon. Or, you know, shoot the shoot the car, shoot the different supports so you can get more of the cargo aboard, and Chewy will pick it up for you.

Kelly 1:19:49

Yeah, and and did you see the announcement about that uh from D-23?

Pete 1:19:54

Oddly enough, I did just before I came over, in which they're going to expand to another asset. So you actually go on two different possible missions.

Kelly 1:20:04

Right. That's kind of cool. And the new one will be featuring the Mandalorian, evidently. That's cool. Yeah, and they they showed an artist sketch of him flying next to you. And I was like, oh, neat. Yeah, that's cool.

Pete 1:20:16

Yeah. I like that. I like I like that including inclusion of the mythos. Yeah. I I think over time we've had more and more school shootings. I'm sorry to bring it up. And we've had a lot more um thought about what is acceptable as far as having guns in Disneyland or having shooting, you know, as an entertainment. And I'm of two minds. I to as a parent, I totally see it. Yeah. I live in I actually live in a neighborhood where I hear gunfire a lot. Yeah. And I'm not pleased by that. Um, so that part of me says, absolutely, let's not, let's not romanticize gunfire, you know, gun warfare and shooting. But the little kid in me still wants that empowerment of I the basic premise of I pull a trigger, I throw a rock, or I throw something, it has a chance of hitting the target or not. And by doing so, it empowers me because something happens in reaction to what I have done. Yeah. It's an instant action-reaction, call and response that you don't necessarily get just by being passive on a lot of rides. Yeah. And I think the sh this is my take, and I'd love to hear your opinion on this. My take on why the shooting gallery at Disneyland and at Disney World, I mean, sadly it's gone, yeah. Um, why that's important, and also why rides like Buzz Lightyear and uh The Smuggler's Run are so important is because of that passive nature of everything else. Yeah. And people need that release of I actually did that. I have some self-determination. Right. I have some self-determination, and I actually have some empowerment by pulling a trigger or tossing a stone or you know, getting that instant satisfaction of I affected something.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:11

Yeah.

Pete 1:22:12

As opposed, you know, uh you go through the haunted mansion, it's like it's all happening at you, and you just like shut up, sit down, do not pull down on the safety bar, please. All of that, you know, you're you're stuck. But when you have the shooting gallery, it's your chance to go bang, bang, bang, I made these things happen. Ha, I'm part of the magic. I did that.

Kelly 1:22:32

Cool, move on. I think that I I think that's a really good point. There is a place for that kind of interactivity, and obviously we just talked about that in a recent episode. Yeah. But I don't I worry that it takes over a little bit much. I agree. And I think that for the most part, for there to be those guardrails that we talked about earlier where you have the um the conflict and the the facing adversity and facing your fears and triumphing over them, um you need to have a little bit of your self-determination taken away. It's a weird thing to say, but it it is true. You you have to ha be able to relinquish some of the responsibility of that b because you don't want to get it wrong. Right. You know, th this is this is why, like, you know, the Haunted Mansion or um you know any of the Fantasyland Dark rides where you you are kind of a character moving through this the scenery, it works. Being you being passive in that role works.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:40

Yeah.

Kelly 1:23:40

Uh but I do think you're right that it there's a sort of pressure that builds up. And eventually you do need to take some action. And I think the shooting galleries are a a great example of this. I also think and this kind of brings it around to some of the beginning of this. I also think that's one of the values of Tom Sawyer Island. Yeah. Because it is not passive. It is the opposite of passive. And um especially for kids, it gives them like all of the stuff that they've triumphed over throughout the day, now they can go out and just exercise it. Like, you know, they can they can take that energy and and be triumphant going on adventures that they are determining themselves.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:30

Mm-hmm.

Pete 1:24:32

Absolutely. So I think we've reached a point in the evening where we do the second half of our very show's title, in which we do a plus up. Yes. But I'd like you to go first if possible, because um I'm still formulating my it's pathetic.

Kelly 1:24:49

I know. You know, it's it's funny. I I came in with an idea, and I was like, I think I know where this is gonna go. And the more we talked about it, the more I'm like, oh, that's a great idea.

Pete 1:25:03

We're gonna put an animatronic walt on the opposite side of a little water moat, and we're gonna shoot lead pellets out. Sorry, Abigail, that's not nice. That's not nice. That's not nice at all. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have made that joke.

Kelly 1:25:17

But I I So here's my idea, for better or for worse. Yeah. The shooting galleries uh stays mostly the same, Frontierland shooting gallery. But that if you do so you're in Boot Hill, you're shooting at a cemetery that that it is animating in front of you. By the way, there is one other um shooting gallery that is also set in Boot Hill. And uh that's the one in Paris. That's the Rustler Roundup shooting gallery. Oh it looks very different. Yeah, entirely different, but uh it is also set in the exact same location as the Frontierland one. That's cool. Yeah. But they uh but my idea is that you you if you shoot enough targets successfully, and it's not that hard. Uh you shoot enough targets successfully that you use a sort of pepper's ghost effect to have ghosts come up from the grave and potentially shoot back at you. Oh, wow. Now they can't hurt you. No, no, no, no, no, no. Like it's it's it's it's an illusion effect. But you're in a graveyard, you're shooting all this stuff, the ghosts get upset. Ooh. If if you hit too many things, and they come up and they're ghosts of old cowboys, because that's where the gunfight of the OK Corral, that's where those gentlemen are buried. One of them's got a big carpet bag. That's right. Yep. And uh and they they react back to you. You'd need to put some some uh glass and you need to deal with the lighting in in a very specific sort of way. Sure. Uh between the shooters and the um and the targets. Yeah. But I think you could do something really interesting that would be rewarding. Maybe they don't pop up and like try and shoot back at you. Maybe they pop up and come towards you, or they circle around you, or they do something, you know, they sh they just shake their finger at you, or Doc Holiday pops up and gives you a smile and a wink. Right. Um I want to have the ghosts come and reward you for doing a good job.

Pete 1:27:31

That's cool.

Kelly 1:27:32

Yeah. I love that. So that's that's my idea. Originally it was more like they start shooting at you, and you have and I was like, mmm, this is a actually a little scary. I don't love that idea. But I do love the idea of the ghosts coming up and recognizing you for doing such a good job.

Pete 1:27:50

That's really, really, really cool. I love that. Um mine is much more ambitious. So it's it's it's actually kind Of tied a little bit to one of our previous shows, which is the golden horseshoe. Yeah. And and kind of a little bit like yours, in which what if we turn the golden horseshoe into the shooting gallery? So you're actually a real big one. A real big you're so you're in the center.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:16

Yeah.

Pete 1:28:18

And you are 360, where and you could actually have, like you said, the ghosts pop up, but you have all these different things all over the inside of the golden horseshoe.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:27

Yeah.

Pete 1:28:27

So it makes it a much more usable space as an attraction.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:31

Yeah.

Pete 1:28:31

And perhaps you could actually tie to some like if if enough people do and you know, different targets are actually activated at different stages. So act one, act two, act three, and then the ghosts pop up. Yeah. Like you were saying, that could be a lot more fun. Yeah. So there's a little bit of a narrative to when you do it. So you're like, you're sitting down now, you know, like when you sit down in a in an old Western movie and everybody's sitting down playing cards, and everybody's suddenly go for their guns, draw, you know, bang, bang, bang, and you're doing your stuff. That could be a lot of fun. But I don't think it would fly, but it would be a fun idea. I actually like yours better. Like yours, yours is like this nice, real, doable. It's very feasible. I've like I've already gone in my head going, oh well, I know exactly where we could put the glass and where we could put the projector and exactly how we could set that up. Yeah. Like I'm already like engineering it, going, Oh, I know how to do that. You know?

Kelly 1:29:22

I think the I think the tricky thing would be, and again, I don't care that much if it's possible, but uh the tricky thing would be.

Pete 1:29:28

I do I want to see it happen.

Kelly 1:29:30

The lighting, because you have so much exterior light that it would it would foil a traditional pepper's ghost.

Pete 1:29:36

True. Well, yeah, and also it faces sunset.

Kelly 1:29:40

Yeah.

Pete 1:29:41

That's the other trick. Yeah. Is that it faces sunset. Now, there's ways that you can do it, but unfortunately it causes a vision block. But you know what? It's still a damn good idea. Yeah. It'd still be really cool. Yeah. So I don't so people of Disneyland do not get rid of this particular attraction. No. Not yet, anyway, because I still think there is life in this, and I still think there is a validity to it. Uh not just for the nostalgia, but also as I've been saying over and over and over again during this thing, the empowerment of it. Yeah. I mean, and I know I'm talking about guns as empowerment, but it's not the guns, it's the interactivity that it generates of that type of empowerment. And the I think the whimsy of it balances it out. Yeah.

Kelly 1:30:28

So I I think so too. I I agree, and I I think that's such a great point. I think the good news, and this is maybe the the great cherry on top to end with, is I think um Disneyland's Frontierland is pretty safe. They it it needs some it needs some help. Yeah. Like they need they need to fix some things, make make some things uh they they just really need to um uh take take a good bite out of Frontierland and just say, this is what this is. Like really just wholeheartedly embrace what they think it is. And if people are interested in hearing what I think it should be, you can read my article. But I I think for the most part there there is a uh uh stamp being laid down on Disneyland that says, for the most part, we're going to respect the history here.

Pete 1:31:20

Yeah.

Kelly 1:31:21

Um, even if it's fake history.

Pete 1:31:24

And romanticize. Yes, indeed. Yes indeed. Well, on that note, uh I'm Peter Overstreet. And I am Kelly McGubbin. And you've been listening to The Lowdown on the Plus Up.

Kelly 1:31:48

We hope you've enjoyed this episode of The Lowdown on the Plus Up. If you have, please tell your friends where you found us. And if you haven't, we can pretend this never happened and need not speak of it again. For a lot more thoughts on theme parks and related stuff, check out my writing for Boardwalk Times at Boardwalk Times.net. Feel free to reach out to Pete and I on our Lowdown on the Plus Up Facebook group or send us a message directly at comments at lowdown-plus-up.com. We really want to hear about how you'd plus these attractions up and read some of your ideas on the show. Our theme music is Goblin Tinker Soldier Spy by Kevin McLeod at Incompatech.com. We'll have a new episode out real soon. Why? Because we like you.