Speaker 2: 0:09

Between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis and the rise of the sons of Arius, there was an age undreamed of, and unto this, Conan destined to bear the jewel crown of Aquilonia upon a troubled brow, it is I, his chronicler, who alone can tell thee of his saga.

Speaker 4: 0:34

Now let me tell you about the lowdown on the Plus Up, a podcast where we look at everyone's favorite theme park attractions, lands, textures and novelties. We talk in over, about and through our week's topic and then, with literally no concern for practicality, safety or economic viability, we come up with ways to make them better. My name is Kelly McCubbin, columnist for the theme park website Boardwalk Times, and with me, as always, is Peter Overstreet University, professor of Animation and Film History in Northern California. Hey, pete, yeah, what are we talking about today?

Speaker 5: 1:37

Today we're going to talk about the land of sword and sorcery in a spectacular way. As a matter of fact, that's the title of this attraction sorcery in a spectacular way. As a matter of fact, that's the title of this attraction Conan the Barbarian Sword and Sorcery Spectacular. We're going back to the Hiberian Age. That's it. An ancient, ancient time full of loincloths and sweaty, muscle-bound human beings who don't really have much in the way of IQ, but man. They're people of action.

Speaker 4: 2:03

And you know, just for this episode people should know visually, pete and I are just wearing Speedos and we're completely oiled up and we're just we're flexing for all we're worth.

Speaker 5: 2:15

Oh yeah, I mean we'll do the Arnold Schwarzenegger grunts later, but I mean, yeah, no, I got my own, my Cringer Supreme fuzzy loincloth, along with Sumerian belt buckle. It's really great.

Speaker 4: 2:32

So do you think it's pronounced? I've heard it a couple of ways and since Robert E Howard died in like 1936 or something, we don't have any recordings of it. Do you think it's pronounced Sumerian or Kimerian?

Speaker 5: 2:47

Oh well, there's a third one. Oh, chimerian too is the other one, but I tend to I've heard it so many times as Sumerian, yeah, or Simerian. I just kind of go whatever. As long as it's not cinnamon, we're good. Or synonym, a Sumerian synonym, yeah it's interesting.

Speaker 4: 3:06

I didn't even know it was in question until recently because I've always heard it as Sumerian. But you know, for the millions of times I've talked to people about where Conan comes from.

Speaker 5: 3:18

No man, it's Sumeria, it's Chimeria, what Okay?

Speaker 4: 3:22

Yeah, and I've heard it recently. I've heard it pronounced Chimeria and I was like really, I guess it could be.

Speaker 5: 3:26

I've got it right here. It's in issue 92 of the Savage Sword of Conan. It's right here. Wait, there it is. You know it's spelled there too. You don't know. I can just see the panel. Conan going Belit. It is pronounced Kimerian.

Speaker 4: 3:49

Now get it right. Well, you know it's interesting to talk about because those Conan comic books, the ones from the 70s primarily, they were huge, they were good.

Speaker 5: 4:02

Oh, they were great. Yeah, they were really action-packed. I mean, those were—I always view them as kind of like this weird—it was kind of like a weird branch of the Marvel comics, Like they were never, ever involved with the dealings of the X-Men or the Avengers. There was never a crossover.

Speaker 4: 4:21

Way, way later, like sometime in the last decade, there was an actual Conan Avengers team-up.

Speaker 5: 4:27

Oh God, I wish they hadn't. He wouldn't even cross over with Warlord.

Speaker 5: 4:32

It was like, well, that was because it was a different publishing company. I think Warlord was DC, but Tarzan never crossed over with him, it was just Conan and I think it felt like this, its own little universe. That made it special. Yeah, and it was kind of like a dirty secret. When I was younger it was like all the other kids are new superheroes. I'm like, no, give me Conan. I want to see this because there's a lot more action in Conan than there is in, say, like Spider-Man or the Micronauts or something of that age.

Speaker 4: 5:01

Yeah, it's like those early John Carter Warlord of Mars comics which I have an omnibus around here somewhere and it spins out a little bit later but early on. Those are some of the greatest action comics I ever read. Oh yeah, they're terrific and people don't realize it anymore. But until the kind of coming of the X-Men in what late 70s or early 80s, the coming of the second wave of the X-Men in what late 70s or early 80s, the coming of the second wave of the X-Men, right Conan was by far Marvel's biggest comic, like nothing else, was even close.

Speaker 5: 5:34

Well, it was also an international hit. It was very big in Spain, it was very big in Italy. But let's the attraction that we're going to talk about, because this is an attraction basis, not just Geek-O-Rama, but I want to make sure that everybody understands where we're going with this. When the journey finally gets us there, they'll go oh wow, okay, that's our destination. Kelly and I are talking about an attraction that is actually linked to one of our previous episodes.

Speaker 4: 6:01

I was going to say that's the first attraction we've done. That's a replacement for one we did previously, right.

Speaker 5: 6:07

So, for those of you who remember our episode about Dracula being a focal point of a attraction or multiple attractions, this is one of those attractions that replaced the Castle Dracula, universal Studios. Yes, conan, the Barbarian, sword and Sorcery Spectacular, stunt, spectacular, and it was a stunt show like no other. I think the only one that has even come close to topping it is Waterworld, but this was like one of the first, and this thing came out like gangbusters, yeah, and blew people's minds, mine included. Yeah, I know that I have seen it at least 10 times in person. Yeah, sometimes multiple viewings. You know, it's like you want to get on the tram and go look at the back lot. No, I want to watch Conan again. That was great, yeah, you know. So they would leave me. Yeah, like, see it as many times as you want.

Speaker 5: 6:59

I remember sitting in the theater they're clearing everybody out. I'd walk right out and I would hide in the back behind one of the big black curtains and just like zoom right in so I could be front row and center, yeah, and I remember my eyebrows, my forehead, hurting a little bit from some of the stunts which we'll get into in a little bit. Yeah, like, like, this was a stunt show that actually caused the audience members physical discomfort and we loved it. Yeah, you know like we loved it because there was real fire, there were real military grade lasers being shot, there was real muscles, real steel, real gallons and gallons of baby oil and so much testosterone, baby oil and so much testosterone. I think that most teenage boys between, and some girls too, between the years of 1981 and 1990, I think, actually grew beards while sitting in the front row. So it's a big deal. It's a big deal, yeah, it's a big deal.

Speaker 4: 8:03

It's a big deal, yeah, and you know this is an interesting point in history for the Conan legacy. It is also a huge turning point for the way that Universal Studios did business. But I think maybe let's lead up to that a little bit.

Speaker 5: 8:21

Sure. So let's talk about Conan. Where does Conan come from? Yes, so, conan, we have to go to.

Speaker 4: 8:28

Texas. We have to go to Texas, to a little town called Cross Plains, texas, where a young man named Robert E Howard lived with his father and mother, but mostly just with his mother. Howard's father was a country doctor in this very rural part of Texas, and so he spent a lot of time traveling quite far to treat people. This left young Robert home alone with his mother, who had tuberculosis almost her entire life. Oh man, so it was an extremely difficult situation. Yeah, howard reportedly was very devoted to his mother.

Speaker 4: 9:12

Howard may also have been manic depressive. Yes, it's very difficult for us to diagnose someone who died almost 100 years ago, right, but it seems pretty clear that he had manic episodes and it seems pretty clear by his later death by suicide that he had depressive episodes. Anyway, this is all very grim, but it gives us a picture of this guy who created Conan Howard's, an interesting character. He's living on his own. He's very isolated from the rest of the world. He's deeply interested in history, and not just one segment of history. He's interested in a really broad section of history. He's fascinated by the new archaeological finds that are coming out in the late 20s and 30s, and he's putting all this together in his writing. Yeah, and his writing starts to sell. Mm-hmm, and it does okay, mostly being published in his writing. Yeah, and his writing starts to sell.

Speaker 5: 10:04

Mm-hmm, and it does okay, mostly being published in pulp magazines. Yeah, mostly Weird Tales, I think. Yeah, weird Tales, argosy, a couple of others. Mm-hmm, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 4: 10:14

And it's in, I believe, Weird Tales where he first reads the work of HP Lovecraft. Good old Howard Phillips Lovecraft yeah who he becomes a lifelong pen pal with Can you imagine being the pen pal of HP Lovecraft?

Speaker 5: 10:33

Can you imagine that? I mean, first off, he was known for writing very long letters, yeah, and frequently, and after he died they found 100,000 letters that he had written.

Speaker 4: 10:46

Wow, yeah, I mean he was an insanely prolific letter writer.

Speaker 5: 10:51

I can't imagine that. You know, I guess, as long as you are not of any one particular non-white race. Because we have to understand that. Howard Phillips was kind of, especially throughout most of his life. He became a little bit more broad-minded after his marriage, but not much. But he was a pretty horrible racist, pretty open and horrible racist. Yes, because he also suffered from his own mental illnesses.

Speaker 5: 11:21

His mother was very controlling. His mother wanted a girl. His mother was very controlling, his mother wanted a girl. His mother was obsessed with his safety. She would have every hard edge in the household filed down so that way there was no chance that he would cut himself on like a table dressed him in children's clothes and this is the Victorian era when he was growing up. So there was the tradition of basically making kids wear you can't say a dress. It's more like, just more like, a muumuu. Yeah, it's like a sexless garment that just fits over the kid. But Howard Phillips Lovecraft, had to wear this until much later than normal. Yeah, because mom was like not, but also, which is weird, whereas Robert Howard's mom is very doting, lovecraft's mother thought he was hideous. She hated her son and would constantly make comments about his appearance and how hideous he was, and so no doubt that led to his neuroses. Well, and so what?

Speaker 4: 12:27

we end up is with two divergent points of view from two people who became friends though later in life. Later in his very short life, howard did start to become a little bit dismissive of Lovecraft. Yeah, a little bit dismissive of Lovecraft, yeah, but Howard's writing. I know we think of Conan at this point as kind of this macho, uber-toxic masculinity thing, but that's not what Howard was writing. No, and we'll get to why we think about Conan that way shortly. Howard, for someone who grew up in rural Texas in the 20s and 30s, was actually a little bit progressive. Yes, he was. He had a lot of strong women in his writing. He had strong heroic trans characters in his writing.

Speaker 4: 13:15

Conan when we start looking at the stories, conan is not the Schwarzenegger Conan. When we first see Conan, he is a wise old king who is helping his mapmakers fill in blank sections of the map because he's been there. He's something of an intellectual and he's telling stories about these places he's been to and there is some question as you read these stories as to how reliable of a narrator he is. So this is far more complex than the Conan we see later. Yeah, most of the younger sort of buffed out and Conan's actually described as a little bit more wiry. He's more like a wolf.

Speaker 4: 13:57

Yes, the younger Conan it's backstory for King Conan and it might not actually be true. But one really fundamental difference that we run into between both Howard and Lovecraft is that they both sort of saw a similar sort of progression of civilization. They saw savagery leads into barbarism, leads into civilization. Where they differed distinctly was that Robert E Howard thought the barbaric era was the good one, and the reason he thought that was because he thought that was a time when everyone was just honest about what they wanted and needed.

Speaker 5: 14:44

That makes sense with his point of view and how he lived his life Absolutely.

Speaker 4: 14:48

And he absolutely believed that once you hit civilization like the one he lived in, corruption begins immediately. Oh yeah. And Lovecraft, on the other hand, thought that civilization was the apex of everything humans could do, and that was everything we should strive for.

Speaker 5: 15:06

I wonder if there was a third writer that hung out with those guys. That was like no savage.

Speaker 4: 15:11

Yeah, savage was the cool one, that's the cool one like these three guys, you know, yeah.

Speaker 5: 15:15

The three musketeers of weird literature. Maybe Robert Block, I don't know. Yeah, that's a bit later he was a pulp writer, but yes, anyway, yeah, but you know that's a bit later he was a pulp writer, but yes, anyway, yeah, yeah. So apparently there is a apocryphal tale of the creation of Conan. Okay, and it came out of a lightning storm that hit Texas, one of those summer rain storms, right it hits I grew up in Texas, I'm familiar with those, oh yeah.

Speaker 5: 15:40

And hits I grew up in Texas, I'm familiar with those, oh yeah, and at the time, this is when Robert E Howard actually started getting a little paranoid, because he actually thought that members of the community wanted to kill him. Yeah, he had definitely. There may be actually also signs of schizophrenia and paranoia is definitely a big part of his life.

Speaker 5: 16:00

So he's holed up in his home and he can't come up with an idea to write. He's just like he can't sleep, he can't. And all of a sudden, according to Howard, this lightning bolt crashes and there's someone standing in the room with him. Wow, and it's Conan. And Conan told him sit down and write. I will tell you what to write, and if you don't write it the way I like it, I'm going to cut you in half with this ax that I've got here. And Howard just, and Conan is supposedly like transcribing. He's transcribing what this vision of Conan is telling him. Yeah, and he typed all night and he collapsed and the next morning he woke up and he had dozens of pages written. He just burned through it, this inspirational moment, and he started getting into this real physical fitness regimen, because he was always kind of a chubby dude, but he started getting into this physical fitness regimen of working. There's great pictures of him with his shirt off and he's got his high waisted pants on going all the way up to his nipples and just kind of.

Speaker 5: 17:04

but it's because he wanted to fortify himself, because he knew Conan would return, so he needed to be able to keep up with this barbarian who would show up and help him write. I wonder how true this story is it? Makes a great story. I don't know if it's actually true, but based upon his penchant for hallucinations and paranoia and so forth, yeah, he makes a great story. I don't know how true it is. Like I started off, this is apocryphal.

Speaker 4: 17:28

Yeah, well, and it's interesting because I certainly read quotes from him later in his career where he said that and he wrote far more than just the Conan story, oh yeah, solomon Cain, yeah, cull all these great characters and he would write like Adventure Set and the Renaissance and he was surprisingly prolific and as much as I love Conan, the Solomon Cain books are far superior.

Speaker 5: 17:53

Great and they're amazing. Yeah, they're so good. If you folks, if you have not read those, get off your butts, get your hands on some Solomon Cain. Yeah, that's good stuff.

Speaker 4: 18:09

Okay, anyway, back to Conan. No, no, no. So I read quotes from Howard, like later in his career, where when people asked him about Conan he would say you know, I write a whole bunch of stuff, but with these Conan stories sometimes it just feels like I'm writing what I'm being told to write. And those are actual quotes from Howard. So it dovetails into something about. This story is pretty similar and he was very physically fit as he got older.

Speaker 5: 18:30

Oh yeah, yeah, If you look at the early there's some early like Weird Tales covers, the Pulp Magazine covers. When you look at the illustrations of Conan the Barbarian, he looks more like a Roman soldier. Yeah, wiry, thin, but he's wearing armor that looks more like a Roman. Yeah, he's saving some girl, beautiful girl, from a snake. Uh-huh, go figure Calling Dr Freud A lot of snakes in the Hiberian age A lot of snakes.

Speaker 5: 18:59

You got to worry about those snakes and I'm so trying hard not to do a James Earl Jones impersonation. I don't know why you would resist. I think it's the moment. We're not there yet. Okay, we're not ready to take on Thulsa Doom, but yes, sadly he ends his own life. Yeah, and Conan just kind of fades for a while in pop culture. Yeah. And then he suddenly pops back up into the public consciousness in the mid-60s.

Speaker 4: 19:31

Yeah, and we start finding some people who are interested in Conan. We find a famous author who we're going to hit a lot for a little bit now, elspreg de Camp, who co-writes the first sort of it's not a pastiche, but it's a sort of Conan copy novel. He writes a book called the Return of Conan. It does marginally well. He kind of drops off and does his own things. I actually I like de Camp's writing Sure.

Speaker 4: 20:05

So I'm going to say some critical things about him shortly, but I do want to say I like his fantasy work. Often, at a certain point, someone starts dealing the rights to Conan. No one's quite sure who's going to deal with it. Someone buys the rights and asks DeCamp to take charge of it. His official job is Ellsberg. Decamp's going to become the editor of re-releases of the Conan stories, but there's two problems with that. One is that DeCamp doesn't think very much of Howard's writing. Oh jeez, and has said so. This is not something we infer. He said yeah, the writing is often not great. The second thing is that Howard's Conan work is very fragmented. Yes, there's no overarching narrative, at least not one that holds together, because it seems to be told from the point of view of an elderly king thinking back to his adventures and potentially lying about them. They're all over the place, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:08

Yeah, so DeCamp—. And then there was a snake. Yeah, wake up, listen, there was a snake. I tell you it's a snake.

Speaker 5: 21:19

Bring me more mead.

Speaker 4: 21:22

So DeCamp, he takes over the republishing of Conan stories and to make them sort of hold together, he starts first off. He starts rewriting Howard because he doesn't think Howard was that great of a writer. He's incorrect about that. Howard is a great writer. Decamp just didn't click with him, right, which leads you to wonder how he ended up in this. That Right, howard is a great writer. Decamp just didn't click with him, right, which leaves you to wonder how he ended up in this position. Right, but he starts— he said just a job.

Speaker 4: 21:51

Yeah, he starts rewriting Howard and if you look up examples sometimes they're shockingly different. Oh wow. He starts to make the things stick together. He starts adding stories and adding pieces of stories, but it's still all billed as being written by Robert E Howard. As the series goes on and this is the very famous series of Conan re-releases that come out in the 70s as that goes on, decamp just keeps taking more and more and more liberties with it and it becomes more DeCamp's Conan than Robert E Howard's Conan, right, and most people don't know any better. Really, there's not any way, there's not an internet around to go seek out the original stories, so they just assume this is right.

Speaker 5: 22:40

Right, absolutely. And what's interesting is this is when we get a more modern view of Conan. Yes, elspreg de Camp's works are coupled with another contributor, a guy who's born and raised in Brooklyn. Very important, very important. He's one of my absolute heroes of illustration. His name is Frank Frazetta. Yes, and in 1965, they put out a compilation book called Conan the Adventurer, and on the cover is the first time we see this character, this massive, muscled character with huge scars on his arm from when somebody had obviously he's trying to fend off a blow, but he used his arm instead. He's got a big scar across his nose and he's glaring at you and he has shoved this huge sword into the ground and this bare-breasted, scantily-clad woman's hanging onto his leg like don't you dare touch him. And he's got this necklace with jagged teeth and there's these wizards and skulls and stuff all in the sky behind him. And he's got this fabulous haircut with, you know, bangs yes, you know, like this long black hair with bangs cut in the front.

Speaker 1: 24:00

So you know, I want long hair, but I don't want it to get into my eyes. You know, and he's got the leather loincloth.

Speaker 5: 24:07

I'd be crazy when I'm driving, yeah he's got the fuzzy boots, he's got the huge loincloth and everything and this cover. For the first time ever it sold a million copies in paperback form. That was a record at the time.

Speaker 4: 24:23

I think if you lived through the 70s or even the early 80s, you know this picture. Yeah, I mean, I certainly do. As you describe it. I'm like, yeah, I've seen that.

Speaker 5: 24:32

It's the ultimate A-frame composition. More people have ripped it off time and time again. The most obvious is the early Star Wars posters with Luke holding the lightsaber up and Princess Leia isn't exactly hanging off his leg. She's supposed to be there, but it's the same pose. Yeah, she's got a pistol in her hand, you know, but it's still the same outfit.

Speaker 4: 24:52

It's very much an homage to that.

Speaker 5: 24:54

Oh yeah, well, you know, george Lucas went to whoever the artist was.

Speaker 2: 24:59

I think it was actually the Brothers Hildebrandt when they first did it, saying I really want you to paint that so it looks like a Conan book, it'd be really good.

Speaker 5: 25:08

My bad George Lucas laugh. The cover is so iconic. And then Frazetta became known for this look. I mean Frazetta's paintings. I could go on and on about Frazetta. I love Frazetta, as tempting as it is. We're going to have to be careful with this, but it is Frazetta, as far as the look of Conan, that is defined from Frazetta's many paintings of him.

Speaker 4: 25:34

Yes, and that's exactly right. Conan is nailed down by Frazetta at that point. He's never changed since then.

Speaker 5: 25:44

It's the same face, yeah, Over and over again the high cheekbones, the huge, wide square jaw, the glaring eyes, the slightly broken nose, the deep set. You know huge eyebrows, the scar across the nose Right, these huge, you know the big cleft chin, the works and the big earrings sticking out of the sides of the hair with bangs. Yes, it's just, it's definitive, Conan.

Speaker 4: 26:10

And it's not antithetical to what Howard wrote, but it's not exactly what Howard wrote.

Speaker 5: 26:16

No, but in the era I mean this is 1965, when it was released. Yeah, it is the crossover from the stodginess of the 50s and early 60s and we're now crossing over into hippie town. The anti-establishment is definitely kicking in. If you're not a beatnik, you're a hippie, if you're anti-establishment. And Conan kind of becomes a figure of recklessness, of much-needed chaos, and so a lot of the anti-establishment movement. Whether you were a hippie, or whether you were a sci-fi loving nerd who had much more liberal intentions, or if you were part of the extreme anti-establishment like the Hell's Angels, you gravitated towards Conan the Barbarian, yeah, because it kind of gave this wish fulfillment and fantasy element that I think they all needed at that time.

Speaker 4: 27:13

I think that's true. And then, as these move through the 70s and these Frazetta-covered books are staying in publication the ones that DeCamp has edited then Conan starts to represent this kind of excess and a sexiness. Oh yeah, yeah, which Frazetta and sex go hand in hand.

Speaker 5: 27:33

Oh, big time, you know. And he was unabashedly, you know, he was never ashamed of it. I mean he oh yeah. Here's the thing about Frank Frazetta Very much like Howard. He was an athlete first, frazetta very much like Howard. He was an athlete first. Frazetta actually was a model for a lot of guys, like Arnie Fenner and a lot of these other people.

Speaker 5: 27:51

If you see pictures of him in his 20s and 30s, he looks like Tarzan. He is just cut and ripped. There's a couple of pictures of him in a leather, loincloth, tarzan style. And you look at him and you go wow, yeah, tarzan style. And you look at him and you go wow. Now I know why he knows every muscle in the body, because very rarely did he ever use any sort of photographic reference. It would just come straight out of his brain onto the canvas. My favorite Conan painting is not the A-frame Conan the Adventurer. It's one that he was notorious for this. His wife, ellie, actually stole the keys from him for his own gallery because he was notorious for sneaking in the middle of the night and grabbing one of the paintings and fixing it I'm using giant finger quotes fixing it. So there came a point where Ellie went Frank, don't get no more key, he ain't getting no key in there.

Speaker 5: 28:43

He's going to go in there and change a Tarzan or something. Get out of there, frank. No, ain't get no key in there. He's got to go in there and change a Tarzan or something. Get out of there, frank. No, you're not going in there. Ellie Frazetta bless her. She was the business arm of the Frazetta fortune, yeah, and she knew the legacy. She was the reason why Frank never gave publishers his original art. He always kept his original art. Gave publishers his original art. He always kept his original art. Oh, because he knew like yeah, I'm only getting like anywhere from $500 to $1,200. The Friends of the.

Speaker 6: 29:17

Magic Gathering is coming to the Disneyland Resort this May 3rd and 4th 2025. Spend the weekend with some of your favorite podcasters, along with other listeners as we enjoy the Disneyland Resort. As a special treat this year, we're having a special Saturday night dining event featuring TV dinners inside Howard Johnson's spectacular tribute to Disneyland's former Monsanto Plastics House of the Future the House of the Retro Future Suite. After dinner, peter Overstreet and Kelly McCubbin from the Lowdown on the Plus Up podcast will be recording a special episode of their show live from inside the House of the Retro Future Suite. That's May 3rd and 4th 2025 at the Disneyland Resort. Visit friendsofthemagiccom for more information.

Speaker 5: 30:12

Movie posters For a long time in the 60s, the movie poster genre that he created and made famous and actually wound up getting copied by a lot of other artists, including some great comic legends like Jack Davis. Yeah, he started the Chase Me poster, as it was called. Okay, he did. What's New Pussycat? Oh, yeah, with all these people chasing after Peter Sellers and that kind of stuff. Yeah, and Ringo. And then he did the Night they Raided Minsky's. Yeah, he did After the Fox.

Speaker 4: 30:45

I know exactly what you're talking about as soon as you say these oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: 30:50

Those are all Frank. Wow, when you see After the Fox, go on Google Image Search folks who are listening and look up movie poster of After the Fox, the rendering of the female lead in that movie. You look at that and you go, oh my god, it's the Egyptian princess that Frank did later for a cover of Eerie Magazine for Warren Publications. It's the same face. You go, that's a Frazetta girl.

Speaker 5: 31:12

You see her in the film and you go hacha, baby, she is a Frazetta girl, come to life. And it's like no wonder, and it's because she was a major influence on him. And it's like no wonder, and it's because she was a major influence on him Even though he was married to Ellie and had a great time. He would just store that look and go. That is what a sexy exotic woman looks like. Is that particular Italian actress? And so they all subsequently kind of looked like her. Huh.

Speaker 4: 31:36

So, interesting.

Speaker 5: 31:37

He kept going until he tried to get a job doing book covers. He's like I got sick of doing all the cartoony stuff. Jack Davis ripped me off for Mad Mad, mad Mad World with the Chase Me stuff and he finally brought in his work to some publisher and they said this is not what we're looking for.

Speaker 4: 31:59

Yeah, and he got really ticked. It's so bizarre to think of anyone turning down Frank Frazetta as a book cover artist.

Speaker 5: 32:07

Oh yeah, I know right. And so they turned him down. He was walking home in Brooklyn and apparently he was so mad he tore apart his neighbor's picket fence with his bare hands, oh dear. He ripped it up and smashed it and his neighbor was like what the hell are you doing? I got turned down. He was so mad and he realized what he was doing. He's like I'm sorry, I'll pay for it later. So now he's like great, now what am I going to do?

Speaker 5: 32:30

And he got home and he slammed a canvas down and he just started painting a self-portrait. Look it up it's. You can see the rage in his hazel eyes looking straight at you. And that portrait is the first time he ever really started playing hard with oils that Rosetta style of oil paints where you really get that. Look it's painterly. And he went I'm onto something here. And that's when he realized that power, that force of painting became apparent. That portrait actually helped him land the job for that Conan book cover. Wow, the minute he did that book cover, that was it. And it actually started a whole franchise of fantasy arts. Yeah, fantasy illustration just shot through the roof.

Speaker 4: 33:17

Yeah, all of a sudden you get your Bruno Bezettas and your—.

Speaker 5: 33:20

Boris Vallejo, ken Kelly there were so many of them. My hero, michael Whelan Yep, and a lot of them very famous names would actually get approached by other publishers saying so we got this fantasy novel we need to put out Can you paint like Frank Frazetta?

Speaker 5: 33:42

And some were good at it and some were not yeah and some were good at it and some were not, and there were like Ken Kelly was actually a close follower of Frazetta, but you can totally tell that they're just, they're trying to be Frazetta, yeah, and especially when you look at the 70s magazines Eerie and Creepy from Warren Publications, frazetta did some of the early covers but then as soon as he was like I'm off doing other things, I'm going to make some real money, even though some of his covers for that were some of the best paintings he ever did. They're extraordinary. But there was a lot of copycats and that irked him like nobody's business. And there's one more person that I want to bring up real quick, who's also from Brooklyn, from Brownsville Ralph Bakshi, whose big thing was animation. He's the man who actually saved animation twice Disney and so forth in 68, 69, we're actually thinking about shutting down the animation department and because of Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat, everybody brought back animation. And then when animation took another header and because of Ralph Bakshi's Fritz the Cat, everybody brought back animation.

Speaker 5: 34:45

Yeah, and then when animation took another header once more, this is going to be connected to what we're talking about in many, many ways. Yeah, it was taking a header in the 80s, because most cartoons for children at the time were actually extended commercials for toys. And so Ralph Bakshi came out of the woodwork once more going I'm going to save animation, I'm just going to make this happen. And so he hired a bunch of nobodies who are now some of the biggest names in animation today Bruce Timm, john Griff, lucy. As much of a creep as he is, he was actually sorry, john, but you are. I love Brandon Stimpy. I hate the fact that he was such a creep. Yeah, I will state that opinion quite clearly. But he hired all these people to do the New Adventures of Mighty Mouse. Yeah, and that changed children's television. They got rid of the commercials and made cartoons funny again. Yeah, I love.

Speaker 4: 35:37

New Adventures of Mighty Mouse. I have some of them.

Speaker 5: 35:40

Yeah, so our story for Conan is involved with Ralph and Frank and, of all people, oliver Stone.

Speaker 4: 35:51

Okay, I don't know any of this, so keep going, okay.

Speaker 5: 35:56

So what happens is is Ralph puts together in the late 70s, he puts together a animated version of JRR Tolkien's the Lord of the Rings yeah, I love that movie. And we had had fantasy movies like Jason the Argonaut, the Seventh Voyage of Sinbad yeah, but we had not had the full-on tits and lizards, as Frank would call it, crazy sword and sandal, sword and sorcery type of movie. Oh wait quick interjection.

Speaker 4: 36:28

Tolkien was asked at one point about books that he liked. Oh, yeah, please. And he had read Howard Conan and liked it. Oh, that's cool I didn't know that that's awesome and he was not someone to give praise lightly.

Speaker 5: 36:44

No, absolutely that's really cool yeah, imagine.

Speaker 1: 36:48

Frodo beckons you must take the river to Khazad-dûm and take the ring to Khazad-dûm.

Speaker 2: 36:58

By life or by death, I will serve you and you have my bow.

Speaker 1: 37:02

And my axe, yes, and you have my sword. By crumb by crumb, we will get that ring to Mount Doom. Come on, do it. Come on, I'm right here. Throw the precious into the volcano Conan. There are seven members, for the seven members of the fellowship, for the seven riders of the Nazgul One, two, three, I think you're right.

Speaker 5: 37:34

Oh God, the Conan Fellowship of the Ring crossover, oh so good Begging to happen now.

Speaker 1: 37:40

Let me get all of these fantasy characters mixed together.

Speaker 5: 37:44

Anyway.

Speaker 4: 37:48

So Oliver Stone, ralph Bakshi and Frank Rosetta.

Speaker 6: 37:51

Okay.

Speaker 5: 37:52

So here, strap in, because this is great. Ralph did an animated version of Lord of the Rings and he did it in the only way that he knew he could do an epic movie like that. He utilized a technique by Max Fleischer called rotoscoping. Yeah, and rotoscoping, for those who do not know, is a special technique in which you use live-action footage and project frame-by-frame live-action footage onto a semi-opaque piece of glass that you can then trace drawings onto. So that way, frame-by-frame, you're capturing natural motion of a figure that is moving, yeah, and then you can redraw your character on top of that. Max Fleischer famously doing this with his Cab Calloway cartoons, like Minnie the Moocher. It had been used by Disney sparingly. You can see it very definitely used in Snow White, oh for sure.

Speaker 4: 38:55

Interestingly enough, they still deny it. The official word from Disney is we never used rotoscoping. And the official word from me is yes, you did. Yes, you did Give me a break.

Speaker 5: 39:05

No way you know. To quote Ralph, he's like there's no way you could do Lord of the Rings by hand. You can't, you can't possibly do it. You have to be able to get the action With all the horses and the armies that are out there. You've got to do it right.

Speaker 4: 39:20

It's very hard to animate humans, humans that look like humans. Strangely enough, yes, rotoscoping comes into play. It comes in real handy when you're trying to get human motion. The thing I love about Bakshi, and particularly in that Lord of the Rings adaptation, is he's the first animator that's not hiding it. Oh yeah, he's just like. I don't care if you know that I'm drawing over live-action footage, I am yeah, and he's proud of it.

Speaker 5: 39:47

But they had Mike Ploog and several other illustrators come in and design characters yeah. Then what they would do is they would find actors that were close enough physically to those characters yeah, and to be the physical representations for rotoscoping. Meanwhile, they hired a bunch of voice actors. John Hurt is in it, yeah, he plays Aragorn the Rolling Stones.

Speaker 4: 40:13

Some of them were almost in it for a time, oh yeah. Yeah, I mean, mick Jagger wanted to be Frodo in it. He plays Aragorn the Rolling Stones. Some of them were almost in it for a time, oh yeah.

Speaker 5: 40:16

Yeah, I mean Mick Jagger wanted to be Frodo in it. There's a bunch of people that had done a BBC audio radio version a couple of years before Many of those voice actors returned. So the guy who plays Boromir in Lord of the Rings was from the radio version, as was the guy who played Gollum Interesting, I didn't know that. And one of the more famous people is Anthony Daniels of C-3PO. Fame plays Legolas Interesting.

Speaker 4: 40:47

There's actually a weird lot of crossover between Star Wars and Batshu movies. Oh yeah, War.

Speaker 5: 40:52

Camels and Wizards. You know that kind of stuff Wizards. It was originally going to be called War Wizards, but George had me change the name. Actual quote, so true, so what the process worked is they had recorded all the audio. Then the actors who were going to be the physical actors would get dressed up in grayscale and black and white makeup, costumes and makeup. And they would costumes and makeup yeah, and they would have to lip sync yeah, Because John Hurt is not the same guy who's physically being Aragorn, but he's got that great, gravelly John Hurt voice.

Speaker 5: 41:25

Yeah, so they did the movie and it cost him I think it cost him $7 million. Yeah, and Saul Zents, who was the producer, had put up the money for it and that wasn't even adequate enough for him to actually finish the entire series of books. Yeah, the movie ends halfway through the Two Towers, yeah, and famously it leaves people going what Right? And of all people, Rankin and Bass finish it with their really horrible Return of the King. I know, Although I do like the song when there's a Whip, there's a Way.

Speaker 5: 41:58

Where there's a Whip, there's a Way. Yeah, that's the best part. Yeah, but the rest of it you're just like oh God, this is such a so it cost him $7 million to do, and he was burned out at this point and he was looking for another project. And out of nowhere comes the screenwriter named Oliver Stone, who has been hired by an Italian film producer, mostly focused on exploitation films. So what year are we talking about here? This is 79. But he was approached and he wrote the first drafts of Conan the Barbarian for this Italian movie producer, and the Italian movie producer's name is Dino Dillerentes.

Speaker 2: 42:39

Yes, he's bigger than life, a guy. He talk like this. He's Dino Dillerentes, and Dino says we are going to make the Conan the Barbarian movie. We get Oliver Stone to make the screenplay and he's a big guy. Raffaella, you help me with this screenplay. He is Oliver Stone.

Speaker 5: 42:59

And, by all accounts, Oliver Stone's screenplay was like full of huge, vast oceans of mutants and fighting and battle with. I mean it was Awesome yeah.

Speaker 5: 43:10

It was straight out of the comics and De Laurentiis was inspired by the Marvel comics, mm-hmm Comics that were coming overseas. Yeah. Of Conan the Barbarian yeah, drawn beautifully by John Buscema and John Romita Sr and all those great. I mean, I love so great the Buscema Conan. Yeah, it's like, oh yeah, some great poses and some great. You just see the rage Like it comes into a close second to Frazetta as far as that power behind Conan artistically. Yeah, so he needed. But this was too much money. Yeah, they looked at it and, like Oliver Stone's original draft was just too much. So De.

Speaker 2: 43:50

Narentes had to put off the. I had to put off the making of this movie.

Speaker 5: 43:57

So he calls on he goes.

Speaker 2: 44:00

Who does the fantasy? Who does the fantasy movies?

Speaker 5: 44:04

So he paid a visit to Ralph Bakshi, yeah, and Bakshi, you know, was like yeah, okay, we'll just finish Lord of the Rings and we can do this. And it wasn't making a lot of money, but Dino didn't care. He's like you make the movie, make it big.

Speaker 2: 44:19

We have this star. He's in this movie, Pumping Iron, and it's a good movie. If it got a bigger muscle it'd be perfect. I do actually love that movie.

Speaker 4: 44:29

It's pretty great. Yeah, it's fascinating, but back then.

Speaker 5: 44:31

But Bakshi was like Lou Ferrigno, you know no the other one. No, the other one, yeah, the one who won, you know, but it was Arnold Schwarzenegger, and my accents are going to be really wild because we're going to go from Austrian to Italian and Brooklyn really fast here, all right, so apparently there was a meeting between Ralph Bakshi, dino De La Rente and Arnold Schwarzenegger, and Schwarzenegger, like Bakshi being a fan and a friend of Frank Frazetta saying so, I want to make him more like Frazetta's Conan, where he's more like a wolf.

Speaker 1: 45:09

You know he's powerful, but he's lithe.

Speaker 5: 45:11

He's able to move really fast. He's a warrior, he's really good. And in comes Arnold.

Speaker 1: 45:14

Schwarzenegger Arnold walked in. Why does such a little guy need a giant desk like you, Dino?

Speaker 5: 45:23

He's this gigantic. Apparently he had this huge, like 10-foot-wide desk to sit behind, but Dino is like 5'2 or something short, so he just looks like this little ant behind this giant desk. So Arnold immediately starts peeing on trees and Bakshi can't like this guy can't talk.

Speaker 1: 45:43

He's what he's doing over here with the giant desk.

Speaker 5: 45:45

He hadn't had his teeth straightened yet. He was still very much struggling with the English language as an actor, especially since his latest hit was Hercules Goes to New York.

Speaker 6: 45:54

Yes, when he's billed as.

Speaker 5: 45:56

Arnold Strong playing second fiddle to the wimpy but entertaining Arnold Stang. Arnold Stang got top billing on Hercules Goes to New York. On the original posters you know it's not something.

Speaker 4: 46:13

If I was Arnold Stang, it would not be something I'd be proud of.

Speaker 5: 46:15

Well, that's not too bad. I'm actually acting with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Speaker 1: 46:21

With Arnold Stang over here. I'm not doing some Mad.

Speaker 5: 46:24

World. Apparently, bakshi just could like I can't understand Schwarzenegger and he's giant, he can't move, he's just too muscular, it's not going to work, I'm not going to. Well, apparently, you know, this is what I want with Conan and, like Arnold, apparently just sat there kind of soaked it in, and the way Bakshi talks about it, he figures like as soon as the door closes.

Speaker 1: 46:44

I no work with Bakshi. He no, you know. He no know what he doing. You know that kind of stuff.

Speaker 5: 46:56

So they were looking Schwar Schwarzenegger just became Frankenstein. You know, bakshi didn't really care for Schwarzenegger, so it wouldn't be until about a year or so later that Dino De Laurentiis would actually call him again. Bakshi Didn't get him Conan, but he did give it the director's job to a screenwriter and film director who had come out with a movie called the Wind and the Lion with Sean Connery. Oh yeah, his name is John Milius. Yes, and John Milius, boy howdy. This is a guy who wanted to be David Lean. Yeah, or John Ford, yeah. Like this guy is about bravado, he's bigger than life. Yes, he helped Francis Ford Coppola on Apocalypse. Now Right, he wrote the USS Indianapolis speech in Jaws. Wow.

Speaker 4: 47:42

Yeah, because he's one of those kind of scrappy filmmakers that came out of the UCLA process.

Speaker 2: 47:48

Out of that film school.

Speaker 5: 47:48

Yeah, yep, and apparently he got along well. Can I just interject?

Speaker 4: 48:00

Yeah, please, he directed the.

Speaker 5: 48:02

Evil Knievel. Biopic with George Hamilton George.

Speaker 4: 48:05

Hamilton, oh my God, as Evil Knievel. Wow Like why they didn't just get Evil.

Speaker 5: 48:11

Knievel, I don't know. He's probably recovering from his jump across the Grand Canyon. Yes, wow, he's probably recovering from his jump across the grand. Yes, wow, yeah, so they hired john melius and melius and dino got along famously. Yeah, um, melius just got it, but he immediately changed the script. He goes we got to keep the budget down. Yeah, let's make it more about what is going on right now, and what was big at the time was jonestown Cults Death cults.

Speaker 5: 48:37

Everyone's into death cults. Well, it's kind of it. And if you watch Conan, that's what it kind of is. It's a parable against cults, yeah, with Conan being this like kid who gets harmed by a cult and seeks revenge Right, but actually frees a whole nation from this really awful cult of Thulsa Doom, right. And so in the casting they had Schwarzenegger, they got Max von Sydow as King Osric the usurper. What daring, what arrogance you know like he's so good as this creepy old Viking guy.

Speaker 4: 49:11

Von Sydow is the greatest actor willing to do anything. Oh yeah, Absolutely. I mean, he's one of the greatest film actors of all time. Oh yeah, and he was willing to do anything. I mean, he's in Strange Brew, for heaven's sakes.

Speaker 5: 49:29

And so, yeah, absolutely. And of course, fresh off of the Great White Hope is James Earl Jones, yeah, and also off of Star Wars, because he's got that fabulous basso profundo voice. But he steals the movie as Thulsa Doom. Anytime he's on the screen, you are captivated by those fabulous green eyes of his and those costumes, which are very much like. Milius was a big fan of Frazetta, so at least they would talk to Frank, and so they used a lot of the look of Frank Frazetta in that, apparently, the studio actually had posters everywhere that were Frank Frazetta's. Oh Going. Make it look like this. Yeah, make it look like this, make it look like this. That's so funny and the movie is just full of it's. A Frazetta movie come to life, yeah.

Speaker 4: 50:18

It's intense. Yeah, it's so much fun and it really moves it. Just it seems smarter than it ought to be.

Speaker 5: 50:27

And there were several other factors. You also have the fantastic score of Basil Polidorus. Yeah, the Anvil of Crom is one of my favorite movie themes ever. You have great special effects, great fight sequences, and here I need to take a quick little thing, because there's a parallel path that we now hit, okay. Okay, and our parallel path we're going to go in and out of this. Yeah, let me ask you a question. And for my students who listen to this show, don't say nothing. Yeah, kelly doesn't know this one. You guys have all heard this one, but Kelly hasn't heard it. Okay, in the late 60s, early 70s, name the first major sci-fi epic that spawned action figures, play sets, birthday serving trays, masks, underwear, pajamas and sleep covers and any type of merchandise you could think of. Name that sci-fi franchise. And here's a hint A sequel just recently came out In what?

Speaker 4: 51:34

period, again the 70s, in the 70s. So I'm going to say it's not Star Wars, good for you.

Speaker 5: 51:43

A lot of people go to Star Wars, but it's not Star Wars, yeah, so, toys, it was a licensing phenomenon in our childhood.

Speaker 4: 51:54

Really, yeah, I don't know. I give up. Planet of the Apes oh yeah, ape mania and I had a bunch of those toys.

Speaker 5: 52:03

Oh yeah, I had. You know, like you watch the old TV commercials, there's a great one on YouTube where, because it's filmed on film, the film, the sprockets are off.

Speaker 1: 52:12

Yeah, so you got the, you know the 2001 theme you know, the astronaut who has landed into the future and you can get zero. The female scientist, cornelius, dr Zayas and the gorilla.

Speaker 5: 52:31

Anticlimactic right.

Speaker 4: 52:33

I, I, I. I want to just say this for yeahlimactic right. I want to just say this, and people will completely disagree until they think about it for a little while the original Planet of the Apes series, greatest science fiction film series of all time. I believe that I honestly do I think the first one's a masterpiece. I think the next like three of them are really good and the last one's a masterpiece. I think the next three of them are really good and the last one's not so great.

Speaker 5: 53:02

But can you think of any? You don't like Paul Williams as an orangutan I do actually.

Speaker 4: 53:07

As the reader of the law. I don't think there's any film series that is that consistently strong, any science fiction film series that consistently strong.

Speaker 5: 53:17

I will actually go along with that too, because I actually think it was also bold in its choices. They were bold in their what-ifs, like what if Cornelius and Zira actually retroact, like they find the spaceship and then they go through time again? Yeah, only this time they go back in time and we're going to do it kind of as a comedy, yeah, and it's going to be a commentary on celebrity with Ricardo Montalban, right, and it's like what? Yeah, and it's going to end on a bum note, like they're all going to die at the end, right, but it's a comedy, yeah.

Speaker 4: 53:49

Like what yeah, yeah. And then what if we make the next one about race riots?

Speaker 5: 53:55

Like what yeah, and really call it on it Like it's not just subtle, Like it is not subtle. No, it's so good it's a race war movie. It absolutely is. It's so good it's really harsh.

Speaker 4: 54:08

It's really terrifying. The recent versions they've, because they had to cut some of the blood out of it because it was so over the top Recent versions they added it back in. I don't know that it makes that much of a difference, but it is still a kind of terrifying film.

Speaker 5: 54:27

Yeah, there's a lot to it. It's, and they people thought so back then. And so when ape mania that's what it was called hit, you could find advertisements in the back of famous monsters. For you know, get your Planet of the Apes masks. Yes, get your Planet of the Apes pinball machine.

Speaker 4: 54:46

I had a Dr Zayas action figure.

Speaker 5: 54:48

Oh yeah, yeah, I had a Zero and Cornelius, because I had a crush on Zero. Yeah, kim Hunt.

Speaker 4: 54:53

Cornelius, you know Kim Hunter Academy Award winner Kim Hunter, kim Hunter.

Speaker 5: 55:00

You're just so darned ugly. But there's a reason I bring this up is because that's the first time that licensing hits big for toys Now there have been licensed toys in the past, but nothing to the level of Planet of the Apes, yes, and it went pardon my expression, ape shit, and it really made the toy manufacturers think hard. So I'm going to come in and out of this action figure discussion here because this story has some very interesting twists and turns. Yeah and yes, we haven't even gotten to the universal attraction yet.

Speaker 4: 55:35

Let us not forget.

Speaker 5: 55:36

We're pretty close, but you need to know this, because if you don't, none of this is going to make sense. Yeah, okay, so I'm going to go even further back.

Speaker 4: 55:47

Oh no, we're slipping away from the attraction.

Speaker 1: 55:50

Oh, my God.

Speaker 5: 55:52

You maniacs. You let Peter have a microphone. Oh damn, you all to hell. So we go back in time and we go back to the early teens, 19-teens, I think it was 1914. Whoa, okay, okay, wow, whiplash. Oh yeah, in 1914, I believe this is the correct date. We'll correct it if it is not.

Speaker 5: 56:19

There were a couple of desperados who decided to rob a train because it had gold bullion aboard, uh-huh, and they dynamited the tracks. The train came to a stop. All right, everybody, it's a stick-up. They got the guns. They got the tracks. The train came to a stop. All right, everybody, it's a stick-up. They got the guns. They got the masks. They get on board. They robbed the wrong train, okay, and all they got was $42, a watch and a bottle of whiskey, okay. But because they had stopped a train which was a federal offense, a posse was sent out after them with federal marshals. Okay, but because they had stopped a train which was a federal offense, a posse was sent out after them with federal marshals. Okay, they got cornered in a barn and one of them, a guy named Elmer McCurdy, took it upon himself to take the first shot and started a gunfight which was immediately lost.

Speaker 5: 57:11

Yeah, with Elmer McCurdy, almost immediately getting shot right through the lungs and heart Down. He went All over 40 bucks and a bottle of whiskey and a watch yeah, so probably one of the least successful and one of the stupidest bank robbers ever. Yeah, his body gets embalmed by the local coroner slash undertaker yeah, but no one claims the body. So this undertaker, who's gone through all the trouble to embalm this body, decides you know what? I can make? A couple of bucks, mm-hmm. So he puts the embalmed corpse into a coffin yeah, props it up in the back, behind a curtain, in the back of his shop, mm-hmm. And for five cents you could see the body. Yeah, behind a curtain in the back of his shop, and for five cents you could see the body, the dead body of a real crook, a real criminal.

Speaker 5: 58:00

And he had his rifle set up next to him and he's sitting in the coffin all stiff and weird. Come and see Elmer McCurdy. And he made money for three years displaying the body of Elmer McCurdy. Okay, now, as bodies do, they don't always last so well. So he was getting kind of tired of this. Now, as bodies do, they don't always last so well. So he was getting kind of tired of this and luckily two gentlemen, the Patterson brothers, show up and they say we're the long lost brother, that's our brother. What about McCurdy? He changed his name, that's his alias. You know, elmer's our brother, so we'll take his body, we'll make sure he gets a decent burial. No, they don't bury the body, uh-huh, they are in fact carny owners and they display his body in a tent.

Speaker 5: 58:40

Come and see the famous bank robber, elmer McCurdy, shot through the heart by federal marshals, and he takes around the country for a decade. Wow, and then his body. So Elmer McCurdy goes on this journey as a corpse all over America. His body is actually used to promote movies like Narcotic and Reefer Madness, Like this can happen to you. This actual dead body is being used as a promo item. It's in wax museums, haunted houses, until it finally, in the 50s, winds up in a laugh-in-the-dark attraction out at the Pike in Long Beach, california. Yeah, and it's used as a prop in a haunted house. You know, good old laugh-in-the-dark, you know dark ride.

Speaker 5: 59:30

Yeah, and it's hanging from a noose. So in the 1970s, when the Planet of the Ape mania is going on, there's another mania with another licensing phenomenon Steve Austin, the six million dollar man. And they're filming an episode in the Laugh in the Dark and one of the stagehands goes can we move that body out of the way? It's in the shot, it's overwhelming. So the stagehand grabs it and the arm breaks off and he goes oh shit, I broke it. So he goes outside to get some glue and that's when he's in the daylight he notices oh, that's real bone. The cops are called, everybody freaks out. The news is called in it's nuts and everybody goes who is Elmer McCurdy? And so people learn who Elmer McCurdy actually was. Finally, the town where he was from claims his body, buries him in his birth town yeah, and then buries him under six feet of concrete over his grave. So no one will ever pull up Elmer.

Speaker 4: 1:00:32

McCurdy again.

Speaker 5: 1:00:34

Now, why am I talking about this? Why are you talking about this?

Speaker 6: 1:00:37

I'm going to explain.

Speaker 5: 1:00:38

Because there's a young boy from Long Beach, california, named Mark Taylor. Okay, okay, mark Taylor grows up going to Laugh in the Dark and is terrified by this one corpse hanging. He goes there's something about it. They apparently had painted him with blacklight paint, so his face was green and yellow, with a purple light around him, and it just terrified Mark Taylor, and so he always went.

Speaker 5: 1:01:03

Man, someday I'm going to design something off of that. You know like I always remember that it's just the creepiest thing I've ever seen. Yeah, let's jump back to the 1980s. Universal Studios is the distributor of Conan the Barbarian. Did they distribute it? Or did 20th Century Fox? 20th Century Fox, I apologize. So the 20th Century Fox has already established a record of having— Actually it was co-distributed by both of them.

Speaker 5: 1:01:29

Okay, perfect, you're both right, okay, cool. Yeah, well, 20th Century Fox, as a note, already had a record of putting out movies including Planet of the Apes, yep and Kenner. The toy company had made a ton of money off of the Star Wars franchise yeah, I think it was. Mattel actually made the $6 million man. It was also known for Hot Wheels and Barbie yeah, but they were looking for an.

Speaker 5: 1:01:52

Mattel was looking for an opportunity to get in on this licensing gig, like we're making money off of Mr Potato Head and all these—we've got to get in on this. So they went to Universal and said we want to make action figures based off what movies have you got? Yeah, well, we got Conan the Barbarian, frazetta yes, we're in. And they started designing prototypes. Yeah, big muscular figures with big beefy arms and thighs, little horned helmet, right out of Frazetta's painting of Conan the Destroyer yeah, a big axe and a big sword of power. It just looks amazing. And then the toy company actually saw clips from Conan the Barbarian, with all of the bare breasts and blood and violence and real dark, nihilistic themes and cults and all this kind of stuff. They went we cannot put out a toy off of this. Yeah, we saw what the sales of the alien action figure were like from before LBJ or whoever put that out. Yeah, ljn, sorry, not LBJ.

Speaker 5: 1:02:55

Imagine the president, I'm now owning a toy company.

Speaker 2: 1:02:58

Now come over here and look at my appendix scar.

Speaker 5: 1:03:03

But the alien action figure did not do well and that was an R-rated film. It's like we can't put toys out for an R-rated film for kids, right? That's insanity. Yeah, so they had to go back to the drawing board. Meanwhile the movie is making.

Speaker 5: 1:03:16

Conan is making tons of money. Yeah, it's a blockbuster. It's a blockbuster hit with like huge gangs. You know who was like one of their main audiences of return visitors was the Hells Angels. Yeah, they were big on going to see these films. It was like a cult following where, like you know, motorcycle clubs were like we're going to go see Conan, yeah, like, let's go, and so like motorcycles would be parked all up and down the block going to see Conan. And meanwhile Mattel is like desperate because they've wasted all this time designing stuff. So Mark Taylor comes out, he goes and some of his fellow designers. They go home one weekend and they make several prototypes. One is this prototype that's kind of ripped off of Boba Fett. It's got the Boba Fett-looking helmet, it's red and white, and it's got this big helmet and he's got a rocket pack on, he's got a laser gun. It's like, okay, rocket man.

Speaker 1: 1:04:07

There we go.

Speaker 5: 1:04:08

Okay, yeah, there's our little plug. Be sure to go back to our last episode. Yeah, check out our two episodes on the Rocket man of Disneyland. Yes, okay, anyway, but that's unrelated. Anyway. And then another guy they literally just popped the head off and they put a tank on top of it. It was the Tank man. No joke, now they're not even trying. And then they grabbed their prototype and added some fur, kind of changed the look so it didn't look like Schwarzenegger, yeah. And they said, okay, here's this barbarian character. Yeah, what are we going to call it? I don't know. Call it He-Man.

Speaker 5: 1:04:40

They put it in front of test audience kids. They said which of these action figures do you want to play with? Right off the bat, yeah, every single kid went. The one in the middle, he-man, yeah. And thus was born He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. Right, mark Taylor was the character designer for all of those figures, that first run of action figures for He-Man and the Masters of the Universe. He based Skeletor off of Elmer McCurdy directly. So Bank Robber became one of the best villains ever. Yeah, fantasy french yeah, remember, elma mccurdy was the influence of skeletor. Until we meet again. You know it's, it's yeah, so that's the. That's the origin of skeletor and he-man's and the masters of the universe, because it was a. You know, it was all based off of Conan being too violent. That's insane, isn't that?

Speaker 4: 1:05:37

wild. Yeah, and it is interesting because I think back and I'm like Conan was a phenomenon and I know there were no toys Like none that I saw.

Speaker 5: 1:05:44

No, no, no, no. They tried so, yeah, so He-Man and the Masters of the Universe became the thing, and right about that time. Now we get to the actual sequel, which is not Conan the Destroyer yeah, I consider that Conan number three. Yeah, really, conan two is our sword and sorcery spectacular stunt show. Yes, because if you watch it carefully, some of the development of that attraction must have happened concurrently to the early stages of the Conan action figures, because it begins with a wimpy little guy coming down on the rope with Red Sonja. Yeah, as the two characters they start off as like wimpy little thieves. Yeah, red Sonja is, she's the buffer of the two, like he's actually the sidekick of Red Sonja. Yeah, and Conan goes through this whole thing and I forget the name of the villain of the story. But the evil wizard comes around. There's like a good wise wizard, and the whole time there's a sword embedded in ice, yeah, and he grabs a hold of it and he says I have the power, yes, and transforms into Conan and it's like wait a minute.

Speaker 4: 1:07:03

And that's the catchphrase from He-Man.

Speaker 5: 1:07:05

Yeah, the universe. So to me, I think that there was some sort of crossover that went let's just not say nothing, just leave it in there, it's great.

Speaker 4: 1:07:13

Well, and you know what's interesting? Yeah, let's just not say nothing, just leave it in there. It's great. Well, and you know what's interesting? Yeah, please, callius is the name of the wizard Callius, but what's really interesting is the guy that designed this attraction, gary Goddard.

Speaker 5: 1:07:24

Ah, yes, later directed the first Masters of the Universe movie, the crossovers. Oh, and you really want to get really wild with it because we have to mention it in passing. Yeah, because it's. I have a soft spot for this movie. Yeah, is the actual film sequel of Conan Conan the Destroyer, yeah, yeah, was directed by Dave Fleischer. Richard. Fleischer Richard Fleischer. Sorry, not Dave. Dave Fleischer. Richard Fleischer, holy cow, no, no, richard Fleischer.

Speaker 4: 1:07:54

Sorry. Oh, go to the clown director, wouldn't that be great.

Speaker 5: 1:07:56

Go to that movie. No, it was Richard Fleischer, who's the son of Max Fleischer.

Speaker 4: 1:08:00

The son of Max Fleischer who invented rotoscoping for Bakshi.

Speaker 5: 1:08:03

Yeah, you see where this crazy cycle is Under the Sea. Yep, 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. And there are some people who actually make this great statement that say it's not a good film. But it's actually the best Dungeons Dragons film.

Speaker 4: 1:08:23

I've heard the new one's very good. I haven't seen it.

Speaker 5: 1:08:24

Yeah, I haven't seen it either, not yet. No offense, jason Momoa, yeah, but apparently Dungeons Dragons is also heavily influenced by Conan the Barbarian Heavily, oh yeah, the movie.

Speaker 4: 1:08:36

I actually read this. It was a thing, just people talking later, fantasy creators who were talking about being influenced by Conan. Yeah, gary Gygax was one of them. Oh yeah, he was very open about it, oh yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:08:51

Should we base it off of Conan or not? I don't know Roll for it.

Speaker 4: 1:08:54

George RR Martin, also very influenced by Conan, oh yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:08:59

Game of Conans. I mean that would be yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:09:03

But so, talking about this attraction, there's a lot of interesting things, but there's a kind of turning point here. Yes, in theme parks, you know we mentioned before it's the replacement for Castle Dracula. Mm-hmm, in theme parks, you know we mentioned before it's the replacement for Castle Dracula. It's, you know, jay Stein who we talked about in the Dracula episode J-Bang. J-bang he's basically the creative head of the Universal theme park in California, which is the only one they have at that point. Right, and he is trying to and we've talked about the J-Bang, he's trying to find these sort of sudden emotional responses in people. Yeah, and he thought that Castle Dracula was going to get him that and it didn't work. No, and he knew it didn't work, he was aware of it and he kept trying to fiddle with it and he couldn't make it work.

Speaker 5: 1:09:56

Let's get rid of Paul Lynn and put somebody else in there. Yeah, charles Nelson Reilly.

Speaker 4: 1:10:02

Yeah, that's a trade-up. There's some question like his job is starting to become under threat. Sure, you know, the big Castle Dracula show hasn't done that well. Ticket sales have been pretty stagnant with the park. And he gets this whole kind of new creative group coming in pitching shows for the Castle Dracula theater and he keeps telling them can you make the Dracula show work? He's like I really want it, he's super obsessed with it. Finally, I have to admit I would be too. Yeah, I get it, I get it, I get it.

Speaker 4: 1:10:42

But finally, you know, so they kind of on the side, sort of on the sly, start designing this Conan show because it's a shoo-in. Like Universal's involved in the distribution, they won't have rights problems. Yeah, it's a massive hit. Oh yeah, and a really big thing is Epcot Center in Florida is just about to open, which means that all of the Disney Imagineers that have been tied onto that project for a long time now are about to be cast adrift. Time now are about to be cast adrift, and so these guys that are starting to look at this Conan attraction realize, oh, there's about to be some talent in the pool. So they start trying to put together this thing. They finally come to Jay Stein, who's staying insistent about keeping Castle Dracula open. And finally Gary Goddard comes in and says look, next year do you want to be running ads in the paper saying we've tweaked the Dracula show, or do you want to be running ads in the paper that say we have a brand new Conan show based on a hit movie?

Speaker 4: 1:11:52

Jay Stein comes to his senses. He says I get it, you're right, yeah, let's do it Nice. And this comes to his senses. He says I get it, you're right, yeah, let's do it Nice. And this is the first time. So there's two things that happen here. One is part of the selling point to Jay Stein and to the management is that the Conan show is not like a Disney show. No, they're like this is not the kind of thing that the guys down the road would be doing. We want to do that.

Speaker 4: 1:12:20

And the second thing is this is the first time they just poach all that talent. Some of it's been cast free because of the Epcot thing reaching an end, the Epcot project reaching an end. Some of it they just poach and steal. Oh yeah, in Some of it they just poach and steal and so they have the creme de la creme of Disney's Imagineering suddenly overworking for them. And these guys are like the shackles are off, we can do anything, we can be dangerous, we can be loud, we can be sexy, and they go crazy on this show. Oh boy, howdy did they? And what's really interesting is this pattern that was set up right then still goes on to this day.

Speaker 4: 1:13:05

Oh yeah, now what happens is one of these two massive companies, and to a lesser extent like Cedar Fair, six Flags, starts a massive project. They hire up all of the Imagineering talent. It's a very specialized industry. You have to know what you're doing. Oh, yeah, they hire up all the talent. They work with them for a couple of years. Or, in this last case, with Epic Universe that's opening in the next week or so, they've had that talent locked up for about five years, yeah, and then, when the project's done, the talent gets let free and the other company goes oh, come over here, we'll hire you now. Yep, and it's the same guys Like. Imagineering is no longer this singular company that just has all of the creme de la creme of these technicians.

Speaker 5: 1:13:56

Yeah, I mean crews like to head them. A group, all of them, they all go through this kind of stuff.

Speaker 4: 1:14:00

Yeah, and so you know we're still seeing this. We're about to see all of these guys go from Epic Universe, and Disney is starting to make big plans. They're starting to think about Villainsland in Florida and they're starting to look at the Disneyland Forward project in Anaheim. We may finally get our black hole dark ride.

Speaker 5: 1:14:24

Yes, I'm almost positive that's what they're thinking, or at least the Apple Dumpling Gang roller coaster. Well, now listen up here.

Speaker 4: 1:14:32

And, by the way, self-promotion. If you are interested in how the Disneyland Forward project actually works because I guarantee you it doesn't work the way that you think it does you should go check out my article in Boardwalk Times about it. Oh yeah, you know, if you don't want to go read Anaheim zoning laws for like six or seven hours, I'm your guy, I took care of it for you.

Speaker 5: 1:14:55

He's like the tax man for Disney. I go through all of the folder all before you'd have to, but it's actually a very good article. You must read it.

Speaker 4: 1:15:03

Thank you so much. Yeah, but this, this is the point with Conan, where this pattern starts, where the entire like theme park industry talent just starts migrating back and forth, and back and forth. And you know, when they hit Conan, when they hit this show man, they go nuts.

Speaker 5: 1:15:22

Oh, yeah, big time I remember. My memories of this thing are so distinct because I've seen I know I've seen it at least 10 times, sometimes multiple sittings, you know, on a visit to studios, specifically because I wanted to see this attraction over and over again my poor grandparents would take me to. Don't you want to see this part of the park? No, I want to see Conan again. Yeah, because they did something very interesting A lot of stunt shows that they used to have a, and concurrently, when they opened it, they had a wild West stunt show and concurrently, when they opened it, they had a Wild West stunt show. It was the standard Wild West stunt show where people shooting guns, people falling off of roofs and falling onto bags, a stick of dynamite with one explosion, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, but it was always framed in the howdy folks. Welcome to Universal Studios. We're going to show you how stunts are done behind the scenes. Even Waterworld is set up like that. Hi, everybody, welcome to the set of Waterworld. We're going to show you how this movie stunts are done. Yay, fast and the Furious. Welcome to the set of Fast and the Furious. Yay, conan did something different. Yeah, they said we're not going to acknowledge that this is a movie. Yes, and we're not going to be self-referential. It's like this is Conan and we're going to stick to it. Yeah, this is the reality. There are swords, sorceries and we've got a dragon. Yeah, and it's crazy.

Speaker 5: 1:16:48

When I remember sitting in this thing, I remember going to it, desperately wanting to be Castle Dracula the first time. Sure, really wanted to go Castle Dracula and I'll say what's this Conan thing, Right? And I get in and there's this giant rounded stage with water falling from the ceiling and it's this curtain of crystal-like water, yeah, and all these different colors and blue shining through it and it just magically flutters like it's crystals and it's a curtain and you see kind of the snake god staircase and the pit in the middle, a curtain. And you see kind of the snake god staircase and the pit in the middle. And my grandfather and I went to see this and I sat in the front row for the first center front row for the first time. I saw this thing, yeah, and you're just blown away by the sheer scale of it. Yeah. Then the music composed by Basil Polidorus once more, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:17:39

Original score for the attraction 15 minutes of original score for the attraction 15 minutes of original music for this attraction, which was incredibly rare, oh yeah, and this may have been the first time that it happened, oh yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:17:52

It's extraordinary. And the curtain of water. All he had to do was turn off the nozzles of water, but it looks like a curtain opening with the water turning off. Yeah, and it's just mesmerizing. I just was blown away and I hadn't even seen the show yet and I was like I can just watch this over and over again right here. This is cool. And they've got this sword sticking up in the middle obstructing most of the view, yeah, you know. And then down falls this rope and in comes Lady, you know Sonia and little Conan, who's this little wimpy version? And they awaken this sorcerer who.

Speaker 5: 1:18:26

Oh yes, let me tell you all about what's going on here. Kid, you know, let me give you some ancient wisdom, the Sumerian wisdom. And then they awaken the gods by stealing the eye of the serpent. Yep, you know. And you have this big, booming voice steal the eye of the serpent, no, don't do it. And they have this big, booming voice steer the eye of the serpent, no, don't do it. And all of a sudden, bad guys are pouring all over the place. And that's when Conan, rushed to the front, grabs a sword and they have a trap door set up where all the CO2 cannons are going off and the little wimpy guy comes down and this big buff guy comes out and replaces him to be Conan Conan, you're the only one with the power. And then it becomes a sweat fest of just like stunts, people getting killed and thrown into the pit. And then, at one point, the main wizard villain shows up and he's this shadowy thing behind this giant wall of laser light.

Speaker 2: 1:19:15

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:19:15

This oily laser light which, if you want to experience what it is, yes, you could check out the YouTube video. Or you could check out where the laser was actually used, which was in the 1979 version of Dracula oh huh, for the famous disco vampire lovemaking scene, which is really terrible. Yeah, but instead of green it is red-lit. It was originally built for a music video for the who oh huh, and it was borrowed by the company for Dracula, yeah, and it was eventually migrated over to Universal Studios to be used in Conan and he shows up and more villains popping out and so forth, but the big coup de grace is the villain dies. Conan kills the big bad guy and the bad guy comes back as a dragon.

Speaker 5: 1:19:58

Yeah, and this is way before Fantasmic. Yes, this massive, it is just a head on a dragon. Yeah, and this is way before Fantasmic. Yes, this massive, it is just a head on a neck. Yeah, and it comes out of this pit and it is everything you wanted in a dragon. Yes, it is big, it is nasty, it is this big booming voice that comes out of its mouth, but it also breathes real fire. Yes, it does, so much so that I, actually you, could feel the heat if you were sitting close enough to it, and be really uncomfortable. It's like we're going to entertain you by making you feel like you're going to get burned.

Speaker 4: 1:20:30

You know it was so hot, that fire and on top of a whole bunch of other effects, that when they had an inspector come in right before they opened, the inspector demanded that they fit the entire theater with new air conditioning to funnel the heat out, yeah, which caused them to have to cut other things out of the show because it had to happen in like a week.

Speaker 5: 1:20:53

I know, oh God, well, one of the other things that it has. Like, just when you think that the fire is enough for this dragon, yeah, it also starts shooting green laser beams out of its eyeballs. And these are not show lasers like laser pointers. These are true high voltage, high amperage, military grade lasers, being shot out of a laser generator through a course of mirrors that go up through the dragon, and they are specifically aimed and programmed to hit certain points where they have set up flash pots. Yeah, so it really does blow stuff up with its lasers.

Speaker 4: 1:21:28

Yeah, the laser is actually igniting the flash pot.

Speaker 5: 1:21:31

Oh, yeah, yeah. And there were actors who got injured by the laser. Yeah, the laser actually bounced off of a sword one time and hit somebody in the shoulder. It was like, oh my God.

Speaker 4: 1:21:41

It really works when you look at the way that they had to set up safety for this show, because it was an incredibly dangerous show. Oh yeah, at least one actor did get burned from the flames from the dragon. But there were panels in the floor and for certain effects, like the flame effect, to go off, an actor would have to be standing in a certain position with one foot on each panel, so you couldn't just push one down. You had to be standing in the right position with one foot touching one panel, one foot touching another panel, and then all of the other actors on stage be on similar panels. So everything was reading that we know exactly where every actor on the stage is standing. And then two people in the control booth had to hit a button. Oh, yeah, simultaneously. Yeah, simultaneously. All of those things had to be true before the flame would come out. Oh jeez, and I mean it was just because it was that dangerous.

Speaker 5: 1:22:45

Oh yeah, and a lot of people used to complain about the show going. That's really staged. Like some of the fight scenes seem kind of hokey, yeah, and you watch it and yes, in hindsight you kind of go yeah, I get it. But when you're 10 or 11 and you're into Dungeons and Dragons and you're totally into Tolkien and you're suddenly with this real dragon, you don't care. Okay, the sword fights. You know, this is not William Hobbes. Okay, you're right, this is like really bad choreography, but who cares? Yeah, the chicks are hot, the guys are hot, the swords are hot, the guys are hot, the swords are awesome.

Speaker 5: 1:23:24

The dragon is amazing. The flames are real. Who cares? So yeah, you can totally tell that the fights are definitely set up to be meticulous, timed dance maneuvers to keep everybody safe.

Speaker 4: 1:23:37

Well, this is the first time anyone tried anything this big and since then it's been copied a number of different ways. There were certainly eyes that were, you know, cast askance when Fantasmic happened and a very similar dragon thing happened. There's elements of the Indiana Jones stunt show.

Speaker 5: 1:23:57

Can you imagine Mickey Mouse in a Conan outfit? Oh, that'd be awesome. Oh, what's wrong with you? Thulsa Doom, this is my dream.

Speaker 4: 1:24:06

Hey Mickey. What's the best in life?

Speaker 5: 1:24:10

Crush your enemies. See the driven before you and hear the limitations of women. That's right.

Speaker 4: 1:24:21

Sounds good to me, mate, let's go get our eye of the serpent, but yeah, like the indie stunt show in Florida, is very influenced by this Kind of every big stunt show is influenced by this. This is the one where they're figuring it out. And speaking of figuring it out, who builds that giant dragon? Bob Gurr, that's right.

Speaker 5: 1:24:47

The mighty Bob, our friend Bob. Everybody's friend, everybody's friend, bob Gurr. Yeah, bob had obviously left Disney and was looking for better pastures.

Speaker 4: 1:24:59

Bob had a bad experience working at Epcot. He did design some stuff there, but he was ignored about some things that he was passionate about and had wandered away. You often, when you hear Bob Gert speak, you'll often hear him kind of glowing about people that he worked with after Disney and he seems he's very proud of his Disney work. Oh sure, but I think towards the end of that time with Disney he was not that happy. Yeah. But yeah, he built that dragon, he figured out how to make it work.

Speaker 5: 1:25:35

Boy howdy. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, a lot of the animatronics were also processed by the same company that had done some of the effects for the Dracula show. Yeah, the werewolf and several and the phantom of the opera, the theatrotronics yes, theatrotronics, yes, the same company that had done so. They had contributed by creating the spin panel. And for those who don't know what a spin panel is, it's a magic illusion in which you can quickly replace one actor for, like a burned up corpse. There's one point where the good sorcerer gets zapped by the dragon or by the villain, I forget which it is. I haven't watched the show in a couple of weeks, but it instantly spins around. You have to hang on for your life because you're literally rotating on this central centrifugal force. Yeah, there's a great behind-the-scenes video of the guy in costume. He spins around really quick and you see how fast it is and he slams in and he looks right in the camera. He goes ah, the magic of the theater, but he's one of the guys that actually ignited because of the dragon.

Speaker 5: 1:26:35

He talks about how his hair had caught on fire. Oh wow, so hair had caught on fire. So all of his beard and hair had to be chemically treated to resist.

Speaker 4: 1:26:43

So, with all of these safety precautions, people still got caught. Oh yeah, it was insanely dangerous.

Speaker 5: 1:26:50

One of my favorite memories of this thing was the television commercial for it. Oh, I don't know that I've ever seen it. Oh, my God, I'll show it to you after we record this episode. But, um, they, they. They kind of give you a brief overview of what the show is about. Yeah, but the guy who plays conan looks like superfly snooker, and not in a good way. Yeah, like like he, just like he does this kind of triple take. Yeah, he sees the dragon and he just looks like he's buff as heck. Yeah, but he just looks ridiculous. And you're like, uh-huh, conan.

Speaker 1: 1:27:26

Oh gosh, I'm Conan.

Speaker 5: 1:27:28

You're like oh my God, but still it got people in. Yeah, it really got under people's skin. People loved this show and it sold a lot of merchandise. Yeah, that's the thing, I think, where it didn't necessarily sell the tickets, yeah, but it sold a ton of merchandise.

Speaker 4: 1:27:53

Well, one of the things that I really admire about what Universal did here was that, you know, they were hoping to kind of turn around the fate of the theater because Castle Dracula wasn't doing that. Well, yeah, they put in Conan. They spent $4 million. They had budgeted $800,000. Oh jeez, they came in just under $4 million.

Speaker 5: 1:28:09

The $800,000 was just for the baby oil. Yeah, For the actors.

Speaker 4: 1:28:15

And they put it in. They advertised the heck out of it and it didn't really move the needle very much, nope. And yet what Universal did and I'm really impressed by this is they just stood by it. They said this is the model for what we're trying to do. It's not Disney. One of the things that was interesting was Jay Stein when they were developing this.

Speaker 4: 1:28:39

One of the things that was interesting was Jay Stein, when they were developing this, kept trying to argue about that thing you were talking about earlier, about being more self-reflexive and actually having some audience participation going on. And the developers kept pushing back and pushing back and saying, first off, it's way too dangerous with what we're trying to do and second, we just want to build a giant fantasy show. And so Universal, they built this thing. They went as far as they could go with it. They spent a lot of money. They did some really innovative things. It didn't seem to really make them a ton of money in ticket sales, but they just stuck with it and they said, no, we don't care, this is what we want to do. And they kept that thing in there just about 10 years.

Speaker 5: 1:29:29

Almost, yeah, 10 years. They actually did have a discussion, briefly, about how they could cash in on the popularity of another fantasy franchise, aka Masters of the Universe, because Conan the Barbarian set off and some people would actually argue that it was actually Bakshi's Tolkien adaptation. But I would argue that it's a combo of both. That set off the 80s fantasy genre with movies like Neverending Story, krull, deathstalker, beastmaster, thor. So all the sorcerer, yeah, let's just go down the list of all the fabulous oh Krull. I love Krull. I wish they had made a Krull sword and sorcery spectacular yeah, but that's a different story. Save it for your plus app. But anyhow, what was I going?

Speaker 4: 1:30:23

Oh, starting the fantasy genre.

Speaker 5: 1:30:26

Yes, they tried it because of the fantasy genre and a lot of that was driven by kids who really wanted fantasy at this time.

Speaker 5: 1:30:35

You have to understand that this is the era of Ronald Reagan's America, where people were not feeling a lot of autonomy. People were feeling very oppressed at the time. Part of the appeal of Mass is the Universe for kids was the fact they felt empowered by these characters. Yeah, and also the narrative was very loose. Yeah, it was very easy for them to go. Well, skeletor's obviously the bad guy. Yeah, teela and He-Man they're obviously the good guys.

Speaker 5: 1:31:04

And when they came out with She-Ra Princess of Power, that was it. I mean, he-man and the Masters of the Universe actually had a very interesting gender spread. As far as sales, yeah, a lot of girls loved the He-Man action figures. For that very reason. They felt empowered, especially when they found out that they had a Teela character which was He-Man's friend, yeah, and then as soon as they came up with Princess of Power, the sales were insanely good and boys kept up with Princess of Power. They liked some of the villains and the characters from She-Ra. So it was very interesting on how it really wasn't either a boy's toy or a girl's toy, no matter how it was marketed. Yeah, it actually sits somewhere in the middle.

Speaker 2: 1:31:45

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:31:46

So Universal decided to try and cash in on this to try and get the people in the theater for Conan Mm-hmm. So there was actual discussion of well, can't we just reface it and make it He-Man? Yeah, they thought about it and thought about it and I guess the consensus was there are too many factors to change things. Yeah, that it would literally just be. It would be too obvious that it's a reskin, because you have to have all these safety procedurals, you have to have all these different things that are set up, but you still, it would just be a reskin. The audience would know it and the amount of money it would take to do that just doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 5: 1:32:29

So Universal Studios did a very interesting promo because there was another franchise that was also making it big yeah, strangely enough, animated by the same people behind the Rankin and Bass Hobbit which included some people who had eventually found Studio Ghibli Okay, including Hayao Miyazaki, although he didn't work on this show. Yeah, but there were others who did, who would work at Ghibli, and that show was the Transformers. Oh, yeah, yeah, was the Transformers? Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:32:59

So you had Transformers for sci-fi and you had He-Man and the Masters of the Universe that Christmas 1984, something like that. Those were the big ones. Yeah, the Masters of the Universe only had Castle Grayskull, like one tank vehicle, four villains and four heroes. Yeah, that's all you had. Yeah, I think it made Mattel somewhere in a seven-digit range, about 3 million. Yeah, the next year it went up to 15 million and the following year it was 36 million. That's how fast this growth was.

Speaker 5: 1:33:31

Yeah, and everybody tried to get on board, whether it was Black Star or whatever. There were all these different fantasy characters that suddenly became toys in TV shows. The Universal decided to try and bank on that. What we got, instead of a reskin of the Conan show with Masters of the Universe, was we got this giveaway On YouTube. You can actually see this toy commercial for it, and it's these actors kind of dressed up as He-Man and Skeletor and Man-at-Arms and Teela Beast-Man, and they are very reminiscent of a trend at Toys R Us in which it would have actors dress up as characters to promote the latest toys. Because that's all it really was. Yeah, because that's all it really was.

Speaker 5: 1:34:18

Yeah, there's a point on the tram tour that used to be a halfway point where you would get off the tram halfway through and get to walk around on the back lot, right, and you could have lunch. They had like a cafeteria there and I think they had a couple of like the wonder of special effects. This halfway point is at the bottom of the hill and is essentially now where Jurassic Park the ride is, and they used to famously have this one attraction where it was originally meant to be for the six million dollar man, in which it was a van that was counterweighted, so little kids could lift up a van. Oh, that's awesome, yeah. And then they eventually repainted it so it looked like the A-team's van for some reason. So I guess you were supposed to be like Mr T lifting it or something.

Speaker 5: 1:35:07

Okay, I pity the fool who don't eat my cereal, but at the time, at the same standpoint, they had a special giveaway in which you would get Masters of the Universe toys. You would get a toy which, for being one of the biggest Christmas sales over Star Wars at the time, it was Masters of the Universe. So, yeah, we went. I got a Ram man action figure which I was really pleased by. But yeah, you got to have this experience. But it was kind of hokey and it was like thanks for the free toy. But the rest was kind of like oh, okay, yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:35:45

It was like this weird. It looked like a parade float that had been chopped off and put there of like a very miniature version of Castle Greyskull. You're like that's Castle Greyskull. It's really teeny, yeah, but like in the promos, they made it look like really huge, you know, but it's like it's. I think it was 10 to 12 feet tall, if that, but it's just a backdrop, but it was like, okay, this could have been something really special.

Speaker 5: 1:36:07

As a Masters of the Universe fan growing up, I was not into GI Joe or Transformers. It was Masters of the Universe for me, yeah, which explains a lot. And then they did the following year, they redid it, only this time you also could get a Transformers toy. Yeah, and they were like the little guys, like the little Bumblebee action figures yeah, they weren't like a big act, but you got a free toy. It was cool, sure, but it just never quite clicked. Master of the Universe was constantly pumping out new episodes on TV, right, animated by Lou Scheimer Productions and Filmation. Right, animated by Lou Scheimer Productions and Filmation, and my mentor, sheldon Borenstein, from college he was an animator on Masters of the Universe and She-Ra especially. Oh, okay, so he was working at Filmation. It was one of his early animation gigs, the.

Speaker 4: 1:37:07

Lowdown on the Plus Up is a BoardWalk Times podcast.

Speaker 6: 1:37:16

At BoardWalkTimesnet you'll find some of the most well-considered and insightful writing about the Walt Disney Company, disney history and the universe of theme parks, available anywhere.

Speaker 4: 1:37:21

Come join us at BoardWalkTimesnet.

Speaker 5: 1:37:32

It actually whittled away the chances of sales for Masters of the Universe and it just kind of withered. Yeah, it just kind of withered away with everybody trying to make these franchises, but just people had moved on to other things at that point. Yeah, toy-wise and plus the children that they were advertising, my generation were growing older. We weren't looking to play with action figures anymore. There was a whole other generation. These were the kids that were growing up on Teenage Mutant Ninja, turtles and that kind of stuff so that was the following generation.

Speaker 5: 1:38:01

Right, my generation was Thundercats, Motu and all these other shows. Herculoids, oh gosh, the Herculoids, oh yeah. Humanoids, yeah, all those great Inhumanoids. That was it the Inhumanoids, Inhumanoids, Gosh. So it almost became like those toys became a parody of what had come before you know, and unfortunately it started to show Like you watch video of the Conan show from the 80s and there just seems to be an energy there. But when you look at the later shows, like some of the videos that are on YouTube from the 90s- just before it goes away.

Speaker 5: 1:38:39

Yeah, you can definitely see they're just running through the paces like oh, whatever, okay, I've got the power of the sword, mighty, whatever, yay, and it just lacks the energy.

Speaker 4: 1:38:50

Well, and you know you've got all these other shows that have come through that maybe are marginally doing better. Yeah, you know, at their other theater, the Waterworld show, the A-Team show, the A-Team show yeah, I feel like there's something else that I can't remember, but you know things that are really taking focus. Also, you know, the bloom is off the rose for Conan at this point, like there's not been much in the way of Conan product and very little for a long time that anyone has really loved. Yeah, I think they tried to do like a series at some point 1992,.

Speaker 5: 1:39:29

Yeah, there was the Adventures of Conan.

Speaker 4: 1:39:30

Yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:39:31

And it was not good.

Speaker 4: 1:39:32

You know. So they're coming into the early 90s and they finally are like, yeah, let's give it a rest.

Speaker 5: 1:39:39

Literally a different world. Yeah. I mean Reagan was no longer in the White House, right, bush in the White House, now, right, and we had the New World Order and we were about to cross over then into the Clinton years. Yes, and that's about when the world just kind of changed. Yeah, we were really entering into the 90s Right With finger quotes.

Speaker 6: 1:40:05

Right.

Speaker 5: 1:40:05

The big 90s transition. Conan just didn't seem to have that place anymore. Yeah, we also had the rise of the AIDS epidemic, which kind of killed off a lot of people's sexual liberation, mm-hmm, yeah. So once again we had kind of a rise of repression. Yeah, that was kind of a rise of repression that was kind of taking over. At that time that type of 80s excess just couldn't exist anymore.

Speaker 4: 1:40:26

Yeah. And you know what else is really interesting is there's a kind of dovetail here with Robert E Howard's actual writing. Yeah, his original stories. Without Elspreg de Camp's influence, by the way, you know who was invited to the opening of this attraction? Who? Elspreg de Camp's influence? By the way, you know who was invited to the opening of this attraction? Who? Elspreg de Camp and his wife, nice, yeah.

Speaker 5: 1:40:48

Did he walk through and he goes. It's good, but I have some changes I want to make I got some cuts. Yeah, I've got some notes.

Speaker 4: 1:40:56

But you know it's been since maybe the early 50s that Robert E Howard's unedited, unchanged, unadded two works have been available. Wow, and they first start becoming available again in the 90s. So this is an interesting dovetail, interesting dovetail Like this thing. The kind of altered version of Conan, the Frank Frazetta Elsberg de Camp variation on Conan, is finally being put aside and the original Robert E Howard writings are suddenly becoming available again and this show closes down.

Speaker 5: 1:41:35

Yeah, it's interesting and I was sad when it went away. Yeah, but at the same time, it's like it's been around for 10 years. Yeah, it's time. Yeah, you know, even I, the big fan of the show, was like yeah, it's time. I think it's. Let's see what else they would come out with. And what we got was Beetlejuice's Rock and Roll. Graveyard Review.

Speaker 4: 1:41:57

But that's another show. Yeah, and I got to be fair. I've never seen Beetlejuice's Rock and Roll Graveyard review, so I don't know You're not missing much.

Speaker 5: 1:42:05

Yeah, no offense to anybody who was in that show.

Speaker 4: 1:42:10

Yeah, no, okay so with the closing of this. I think we have touched upon the fact that we have the origins and the rise of Conan and the fall of Conan, but also the fact that this really set the tone for Universal Studios' approach to making attractions from here on out. Yeah, and it's really true, universal was deliberately trying to be not Disney here. Yeah, and they also recognized that people that worked for Disney were people that could also work for them. Yes, yes, indeed, that people that worked for Disney were people that could also work for them. Yes, yes, indeed. And this is where things start to split. Except for that, it doesn't take too long to where Disney seems to be trying to be like Universal, heisner, katzenberg and so that's interesting, Heisner.

Speaker 4: 1:43:02

Katzenberg. And so that's interesting, because Universal is trying to kind of separate themselves away and carve their own identity and Disney's seemingly trying to kind of veer towards what they're doing, which that's a whole other discussion we could talk about for hours and we should probably save it for another time. But this is the point where those identities start. Both of their identities start to shift. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 5: 1:43:28

Well, I think we've actually reached a point in our show where we take on the second half of our title. Here and, without any thought of safety precautions or budget or anything else, we can come up with a plus-up, and I'm going to actually put this one on you. I've been doing a lot of the talk in this episode. Okay, so you did that on Rocketman.

Speaker 4: 1:43:52

Fair enough, but this time you get to go first with your plus-up. So I was thinking about it and I'm like you know it's a theater show, I want to keep it a theater show, I want to get it back to being a stunt show and I want to get it back to being a fantasy show or something like a fantasy show. And it occurred to me. So I started thinking like what properties would be really cool as a fantasy show, something a little more current than Conan? And so the first thing that popped in my head was Lord of the Rings. Like, yeah, that could be pretty cool. It's not that current, but it's still kind of in the zeitgeist.

Speaker 4: 1:44:27

Sure, I'm sure if you asked universal executives they would say Wicked, which actually could be kind of neat. True, yeah. But then it hit me the obvious answer. This is so clear I don't even know how you're going to have a response to this. The absolute answer, with what to put in the stage, is the world of Supermarionation, a giant stage show that brings together all the great works of Jerry and Sylvia Anderson.

Speaker 5: 1:45:06

I'm dangling around like a marionette, wiggling my lower lip like a talking Thunderbirds character.

Speaker 4: 1:45:13

Thunderbirds are a go, and it'll be a big stunt show. Everyone will look like they're marionettes, but they'll be real people so they can actually get hurt. We'll bring in the Thunderbirds, we'll bring in the Stingray. We'll bring in, of course, the greatest of them all, captain Scarlet Brilliant, and you can use this big set and you can move in between Thunderbird's bases and have giant ships flying across. Oh my God, you can go visit Spectrum with Captain Scarlet and maybe they can all fight the Mysterons. Nice, and there'll be a really cool effect, since they're all marionettes, even though they're really just people dressed as marionettes. Yes, exactly Pete's doing it with his hand, like they can suddenly get lifted up by their strings and swing across the stage Meanwhile in another part of town they come up and drag one to the other side of the stage and just plop down like a marionette.

Speaker 5: 1:46:22

Oh, in another part of town they come up and drag him over to the other side of the stage and just plop down like a marionette.

Speaker 4: 1:46:24

Oh my God, I love this idea so much. There's rockets taking off, they're doing espionage.

Speaker 5: 1:46:30

I think this is actually a traveling Broadway show that needs to happen. Yes, the Thunderbirds are. Go the musical.

Speaker 4: 1:46:37

And it would actually bring everything full circle because, as we know from reading Ken Bruce's book Before the Birds Sang, words animatronics basically start with Supermarionation. Oh yeah, that's where they start. Oh yeah, so we're coming full circle, we're bringing Supermarionation back. I love it, lady Penelope. Oh my God, I love this. So that's my plus up. A giant Supermarionation World of Jerry and Sylvia Anderson show.

Speaker 5: 1:47:13

Okay, I love this, that's so great.

Speaker 4: 1:47:18

It's the obvious answer right.

Speaker 6: 1:47:19

It's totally obvious.

Speaker 5: 1:47:21

Oh man, that's a good one. I don't know how I'm going to top that one.

Speaker 5: 1:47:24

Yeah, well, the one I had. So my plus up is taking us back to some of the previous attractions, with the interactivity that Universal was known for at that time. Yeah, of pulling people out of the audience and making them part of the movie experience yeah, right. But also coming back to the stunt show aspect of the over-the-top creatures and stunts, and theatronics and animatronics, but with the animatronics being what they are now, especially what we're seeing with Epic Universe Holy cow those look amazing.

Speaker 5: 1:48:01

Like, yeah, there's no excuse not to do something like this. Yeah, is to bring back it could be in that same theater, or maybe it's in another part of the park. Is to do the Dungeons and Dragons stunt show? Oh yeah, in which several lucky people from the audience are pulled up out of. You know two adults, one teenager. You know two teenagers and one kid, yeah, and they're each given a particular character class. Yeah, like you know, it's like the 80s cartoon show. You know Ranger Magic User.

Speaker 2: 1:48:36

Paladin yeah, barbarian, oh, I'm the Dungeon Master, ooh.

Speaker 5: 1:48:42

And you could actually have Dungeon Master. You know when you're going up against. You know Venger and whatever you want. I mean Venger and those kids are now canon because they are in the new Dungeon Masters manual for Dungeons Dragons for its 50th anniversary. They are acknowledging that those characters are canon. Wow, and they are actually in the Dungeons Dragons Honor Among Thieves movie. Oh, wow, that's great. They're part of the dungeon crawling sequence where the main characters of the movie look left and right and there's one crew over here and they look over to the left. The only thing that's missing is a baby unicorn. They're all there.

Speaker 5: 1:49:15

It's like, oh my God, it's the characters from the 80s show. That's awesome and you roll with it Like if you know, you know, and if you don't, it doesn't really matter, it's fine. So the premise would be is that you learn about the world of Dungeons Dragons and, instead of this being a standard stunt show, you actually do the referential thing. Yeah, but it's not about the magic of the movies, it's about training to be those particular character classes. Okay. So you take them backstage, you put them in a cheap little costume probably fireproofed, yeah and you make them do a trial. You're actually in the Adventurer's Guild castle, yeah, in which you train to be a dungeoneer, yeah, and so you get.

Speaker 5: 1:49:59

You know, the paladin has to do this particular action. That is a magic illusion or a stunt or a thing where it's safe-ish for the characters to do it, but then the audience is watching, cheering them on, and they get to be the star of this 30 seconds where they have to, all right, cross the beam. Now look for this, now look for this trap. Okay, you win, and then, like the character who's the thief has to do something. But they actually die, right, they actually have, like, this spin-around wall where they're incinerated.

Speaker 5: 1:50:28

They're like oh, she failed that one oh boy you know. Then you have the kid do something where they're dropped in a pool of water, they're stuck in a gelatin or whatever. But because of this training they actually have Venger, the big baddie from the TV show, show up and cause problems. And then the actual guild masters are the actual, real hardcore stunts.

Speaker 5: 1:50:51

So then it becomes a stunt show. So the first, like 15 minutes is nothing but like training these audience members. And then the last person who actually saves the day is the last of the volunteers, yeah, and they actually, you know, pull the sword or put the gemstone or kill the dragon. So it's this big starring moment that's actually an audience member, yeah. And the rest, all the big dangerous stunts, are done by actual stunt masters that are supposed to be the ones training them to do the dungeoneering Right. But you still have this over-the-top universal fire-in-your-face kind of stuff. But it ties into the magic and interactivity of Dungeons Dragons without having to worry about, you know, roll for Claire, you know, roll for intermission, whatever. And believe me, guys, I throw a D20 like nobody's business and I love it, yeah, but it is still geeky.

Speaker 4: 1:51:41

Oh totally.

Speaker 5: 1:51:42

D&d is geeky and I have no problem with it. I love it, yeah, but I think that would be my plus up is it is a franchise that's been around for 50 years. Yeah, so have I. It's a nice way of incorporating some of that nostalgia of Conan without having to be Conan. That's totally right. You could be as inclusive as possible with characters and situations that come up to today's standards. You can go violent if you want to, but if the audience reacts, you can actually tone it back if you want to. Yeah, you've got that classic like universal.

Speaker 4: 1:52:16

Let's make the kid the hero and let's embarrass dad.

Speaker 5: 1:52:19

Yes, absolutely, and I think that'd be fun as hell. I think it'd be great, yeah, super fun. I mean I would buy a ticket just to do that. Yeah, you know, like that's kind of what I wish they had done with Harry Potter is have, like you know, a class that's the defense against the dark art show, right, and you, like, you're training people how to fight the dark arts and you're training people how to fight the dark arts, but again, you embarrass dad. You have the kid, the hero, that whole thing.

Speaker 4: 1:52:42

Totally. I mean, it just seems like leaving money on the table, doesn't it?

Speaker 5: 1:52:45

I know so come on, universal, get on it. Yeah, put some J-bangs in there, let's go.

Speaker 4: 1:52:51

Yeah, that's what they need.

Speaker 5: 1:52:52

They need more J-bangs these days they do am still working on the t-shirt. Yeah, I am, I've got, I, I'm working. I am actually working on a low down on the plus up selection of shirts. I have just finished magnification and I've begun work on jay bang, so like it is actually happening. Folks, keep your ears peeled for the line of t-shirts to help fund kelly's and my journey to the epic universe. We'll be able to buy with your proceeds. We'll be able to buy a churro.

Speaker 4: 1:53:26

It'll be great yeah, maybe For lucky yeah prices these days.

Speaker 5: 1:53:35

Yeah, ever since the churro flu broke out.

Speaker 6: 1:53:37

Yeah, the price of churros is really high by today's standards.

Speaker 5: 1:53:42

Well, I think that wraps it up for today's show. I'm Peter Overstreet and I'm Kelly McGovern, and you've joined us for the Lowdown on the Plus. Zone.

Speaker 4: 1:54:06

We hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Lowdown on the Plus Up. If you have, please tell your friends where you found us, and if you haven't, we can pretend this never happened and need not speak of it again. For a lot more thoughts on theme parks and related stuff, check out my writing for Boardwalk TimesTimes at BoardWalkTimesnet. Feel free to reach out to Pete and I on our Lowdown on the Plus Up Facebook group or send us a message directly at comments at lowdown-plus-upcom. We really want to hear about how you'd plus these attractions up and read some of your ideas on the show plus these attractions up and read some of your ideas on the show.

Speaker 3: 1:55:00

Our theme music is Goblin Tinker, soldier Spy by Kevin MacLeod at incompetechcom. We'll have a new episode out real soon. Why? Because we like you, thank you, conan.

Speaker 1: 1:55:30

What is best in life To crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of their women.

Speaker 6: 1:55:39

That is good, that is good.