Welcome And The Controversy

Kelly 0:14

Hello and welcome to the Lowdown on the Plus Up, a podcast where we look at everyone's favorite theme park attractions, lands, textures, and novelties. We talk in, over, about, and through our week's topic, and then, with literally no concern for practicality, safety, or economic viability, we come up with ways to make them better. My name is Kelly McCubbin, columnist for the theme park website Boardwalk Times, and with me as always is Peter Overstreet, University Professor of Animation and Film History in Northern California.

Pete 0:56

Hey Pete.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Yeah.

Kelly 0:58

What are we talking about on this Shorty today?

Pete 1:00

Ah, well, for today's Shorty short, we want to address something that happened recently that every single Disney podcaster and every single Disney Adult and fan out there has been paying attention to with uh let's just say not so favorable airs. And we're not proud. We'll jump on that bandwagon. Absolutely. We thought we'd put our two plus up say two cents in there as well. Yeah. So anyway, uh we are of course talking about the projection pirate in Pirates of the Caribbean.

First Reactions To The Projection Pirate

Pete 1:35

Yeah, yeah.

Kelly 1:37

So I here's my here's my initial take on this. I haven't seen it. I do understand that it looks pretty much better in person. Um, because you know everyone takes pic film of it and they zoom in as close as they possibly can, and no animatronic looks good that way. Um I am of two minds. Anytime that the imagineers decide to take a look at older attractions and maybe make what they hope will be improvements to them, that's usually a good thing. It it means that they understand the value of the thing, that they want to keep it fresh. Sure. It shows that they're not just all in Star Wars Land. Um, I I think that's okay. I I don't mind the idea so much of what they've done to it. And I know people are like, well, it's in the wrong place narratively in the ride, like, yeah, it is, but so much has changed about that ride that I feel like kind of all bets are off at this point. I don't mind the idea of it, but I thought we were done with the projection faces. Yeah. I they are not great. No. Um, they can occasionally work fine, but there's a lot of variables there. Uh, one of the variables I've noticed is that if you come in from like it's like a bright daylight and then you go into dark, the projection faces look odd. They look off because your eyes have not quite adjusted to it yet. Um, so so that can be really variable depending on when you go in. Um, if they don't hit right or you don't see it at the right angle, it can be odd. My distant impression of this is that it is odd. It does not does not look great. That said, I have less of a problem with this than I do the women chasing pirates for food and the breaking down of the auction scene, that stuff. I do understand why they did that. Um they were they were concerned about kind of modern mores and how that stuff looked. Sure. Uh, but they are pirates. They're bad guys. Yeah, there's that. So, I mean, if I if I had if I I only had to do one of those changes, like the one they just did, or that change where there was no longer the wench auction or the pirates chasing women. Sure. I'd rather have this one. I'd rather not have either of them, really, but I'm not as incensed about it as a lot of people. And I am not as incensed about it as I think you are.

Pete 4:47

He's watching me cringe. I know, I know. I'm letting him have his say here. All right, that that that's my say. Okay. Yeah.

Uncanny Valley And Tech Hype

Pete 4:56

So my initial reaction to this uh hit on several levels. Yes. One, I do not think that the projection mapping technology is actually all that useful for this type of effect. For faces. For faces, especially, because it taps too much into the uncanny valley for a lot of people. Yes. Um, I think it's a great notion if you apply it to more subtle effects. Like if you were, say, to put like a ship inside of a bottle that needs to be moving around and you can still see the water inside of it sloshing around. Yeah. And this like imagine the black pearl and one of the giant bottles, and it's floating around in there. See, that type of context kind of works because it's not this overt really trying to pay attention to a face. Right, right. The Elsa and Anna figures got changed for a reason because they were so unsettling to people, they just said, no, those are gonna give me nightmares.

Kelly 5:51

Yeah.

Pete 5:52

But light year, same thing. Yeah. Potato Head, same thing. It's it's a fascinating technology.

Kelly 5:59

Yeah.

Pete 5:59

And people uh all over the entertainment industry have been pushing and pushing and pushing projection mapping so hard without realizing that it's basically 3D for movies. Yeah. After a while, everybody gets the effect, they know how it's done, and it's not magic anymore because they know how the effect is done. Oh, it's projection mapping, who cares? Yeah. When I saw the Imagineering video, the thing that it reminded me of was the movie The Mummy. Yeah. With Brendan Fraser. I was like, which one? Yeah. The 1999 mummy movie with Brendan Fraser. And here's why it reminds me of it the effects group that worked on the mummy were the Z listers at ILM. These were the guys that were all juniors or they weren't really working on anything. Everybody was so focused on Lucas's prequels. And they got this job working on the mummy. And they said, Well, who do we got? Okay, give them to these guys.

Kelly 7:04

Right.

Pete 7:04

Okay, make a quick buck. It's a cheap horror movie, no one's gonna care.

Kelly 7:08

Yeah.

Pete 7:08

Well, it turned out to be a really good movie that people cared about. Yeah, it was good. However, when you look at the CGI effects, they're not that good. Yeah. Even by the standards of that era, but they put a lot of heart and a lot of effort into it. And I think part of it is the performances of all the people in it and the story. Yeah. Have people kind of go on going, you know what? It's a B movie, and I don't care. Let's have fun with it.

Kelly 7:32

You know, if the writing's good, people can will look past the effects.

Pete 7:36

Right.

Kelly 7:36

Yeah.

Pete 7:37

Why this reminds me of that is that I feel like it I think the issue that I have is that Disney is pushing this so hard because it feels like this is their big shot. The technology? The guys, the guys at Imagineering right now, the wed guys who are pushing this technology, and they went so deep into how they did it. Yeah look, here's how it maps. Look, here's how the projector works, here's how this animatronic figure moves around. Look, fascinating it is. The technology is absolutely fascinating, but they're pushing it so hard, going, look at what we're doing. But the job that they actually wound up doing was kind of mediocre.

Kelly 8:18

Yeah.

Pete 8:19

The facial animation on the pirate is very mediocre. The technology is there. Yeah. Just like in the mummy. The CGI was there to render a really good looking mummy. Yeah. And yet they kind of did a mediocre job when you look at the juicy mummy version of Emotep. Right. Doesn't quite work. But you go along with it because it's a franchise that everything else kind of makes up for it. Yeah. This is not the case. Yeah. This if the the the facial animation, he looks like his eyes are made of ping pong balls. Right. He doesn't say anything. He just kind of does this. Oh, oh, oh, oh, I mean you're like, what are you doing? Yeah. And then he freezes and becomes a skeleton.

Kelly 9:01

Yeah.

Pete 9:01

The technology, I think, exceeded the ability of the team working on it. No offense to the team. They were tasked with something that was almost an impossible task, to be fair to them.

Kelly 9:11

Yeah.

Pete 9:12

Here, take a classic thing that people love and update it with your technology. Okay. Not really realizing they're stepping into a minefield.

Kelly 9:21

Yeah.

Pete 9:21

And I think it was their level of bravado about it that I think enhanced the haters.

Kelly 9:27

Yeah.

Pete 9:28

Yeah. So, and I will clearly admit that I'm one of them. Yeah, okay. Okay. However, having looked at it and having looked at other people and listened to Kelly talk to me about this, I have come to the conclusion that I don't hate it as much as I hate it. I get you. I get you. I hate it less, but I still hate it. And here's why. Yes,

Story Logic And Where It Belongs

Pete 9:54

the whole point of Pirates of the Caribbean is it's a story. You're in the story. And they already kind of upset the balance by adding the old split mirror effect of the pirate in the cage who turns into a skeleton as you pass by. It's cute, it's the wrong place for it. It doesn't work for me because it should be going from rather than going from pirate to skeleton, it should be going from skeleton to pirate.

Kelly 10:23

Yeah.

Pete 10:23

It's the wrong direction for that effect.

Kelly 10:26

Yeah.

Pete 10:26

For for the story. Because you have to understand when you're in the pirate's grotto, they're dead. Right. You haven't gone back in time yet. The whole point of the tunnel of dead men tell no tales is you're going back in time. Yeah. This is one of my favorite attractions at Disneyland. Sure. Right? It's like one of the three biggies for me. Yeah. And this is one where I'm going to be a little bit of a stickler on this one. All right. However, a lot of people say get rid of it. Tear it out. Bring back the old skeleton. Get rid of it. Hate it. Destroy it. I am not one of those people. Yeah. I am going to therefore be a somewhat nice guy. And I'm going to say that I'm going to actually offer a polite and creative plus up for them.

Kelly 11:12

Okay.

Pete 11:12

Okay. Yeah, yeah. One of the upgrades that they did in the early, you know, knots during the popularity of the um Pirates of the Caribbean movies with Johnny Depp. Yeah. Is they added Jack Sparrow to the ride.

Kelly 11:27

Yeah.

Pete 11:28

And I like some of his placement. I like him in the barrel too.

Kelly 11:32

I like him in the barrel too. Yeah.

Pete 11:33

I like him hiding from the goons that are dipping the mayor inside the well. That's a nice touch.

Kelly 11:39

Yeah.

Pete 11:40

But I don't necessarily need him everywhere. Yeah. And like they had the waterfall with Davy Jones, and for a while they had Blackbeard mixed. It's like, yeah, okay, neat, but not necessary. Yeah. It's okay, that's a neat effect. And they didn't last. Notice how they're not there anymore. Right, right. So if you want a low impact, but still effective use of this very effect, tear out Johnny Depp in the throne at the very end before you go the incline.

Kelly 12:11

Yeah.

Pete 12:11

Tear him out.

Kelly 12:12

He doesn't look so good there.

Pete 12:13

He's terrible. It's the worst, it's the worst of the Jack Sparrow animatronics.

Kelly 12:17

Yeah, there's something weird about the texture of his skin. I don't know if that's just the water reacting to it over the years, but man, it did not look good the last time I saw it.

Pete 12:25

It didn't look good when it was new. You know, it just doesn't work. And frankly, I get really tired of hearing Johnny Andrew. Snickety, dickety, dickety, wickety, wickety, snickety, dickety. Not a not a stickler for a tickler. Not a tickler for a stickler. Not a tickler, tickler tickler. Anyway. Tear him out and take that whole effect, because it looks like it's modular enough where you could do this. Sure. Take the effect of the skeleton transformation pirate and put him where that Johnny Depp figure is, right after the pirates drunkenly shooting at each other. Yeah. So as you're going up the incline.

Kelly 13:09

Oh, he's turning back.

Pete 13:10

The effect wears off. The effect of the gold wears off on him.

Kelly 13:15

Yeah.

Pete 13:15

And all of a sudden you're going back to modern times and bring back the skeleton that looks like he's trying to push the gold and escape out of the past into the modern age. Yeah. Back on the incline with the little rat's eyes staring at you. Oh, yeah. That's the perfect solution. Then you get to keep the effect. Yeah. The con, you know, and and please, dear heavens, whoever your CGI animator, give me a call. I've got some students who do better animation facially. Okay. Call me and please redo the face.

Kelly 13:47

Yeah.

Pete 13:48

You know, do a 3D scan of one of Blaine Gibson's pirates and use that as the model. Don't try and be clever with it. Right. It didn't work.

Kelly 13:56

Yeah.

Pete 13:57

Just redo and put that projection on his face. Have him looking at you, and he's got a pistol in his hand looking around like, oh, ah, you know. Yeah. It's drunk. You know, he's a drunk. And drink on me, Hardy Shoho. You know. You know, pull it out in the bottle. And he transforms as you pass by him.

Kelly 14:19

And then you exit back out to the modern day. Right.

Pete 14:22

Yeah. Then that effect would have a better context. You get to keep the effect. Yes, you have to spend some money to move it. Yeah. But it and and you get to lose one of your lesser successful versions of the Jack Sparrow character without really impacting the story. Because let us be very clear and very honest. The Johnny Depp character has a shelf life. Yes. Yeah, and I we may be past it. We might be past it. You get to keep Barbosa, you get to keep the two depths, the one in the barrel and the one hiding behind the sailboat in the laundry.

Kelly 14:55

Yeah.

Pete 14:55

And so they're still there, but move your new effect into that area. And also I will bet you dollars to doubloons. That your fans will love you for that and go, okay, I didn't like it at first, but once they moved it, it actually made sense and I actually like it now. Yeah. I guarantee you that that I will put money on the table that if Imagineering actually did that, and and just set their egos aside for a minute and went, oops, we messed up. The fans don't like this. What do we do? Well, we don't want to get rid of it because we work so hard on it. Well, don't get rid of it, just move it.

Kelly 15:32

Yeah. I mean, this is the same, the same thing they did with the hatbox ghost in Florida. Yep. Where people love the hatbox ghost. Sure. It was a cool character. It was kind of mythological as part of the history. Yeah. And it it showed up in California in the right place.

Pete 15:48

Yep.

Kelly 15:48

Um, and then in Florida, they put him way early in the ride. And suddenly you're like, no, no, no, the spirits haven't been summoned yet. Right. Why are you here? Um, it's the same problem. Yes. Right. It's in it's it's a good or or at least decent effect that um is in the wrong place.

Pete 16:08

And this is something I think that especially Disney adults. Yeah. Because let's be honest, a lot of this controversy is fueled by Disney adults including. And I include us in this statement.

Kelly 16:18

Of course, and Disney Company do not listen to Disney adults. No. Just don't. We don't know what we're talking about.

Pete 16:23

No, no. No, we don't. And then they won't listen to us, except they seem to have done that when they built the Walt Disney animatronic. Yeah, sorry about that, everybody. Yeah, we're really we called that one, and I wish we hadn't. But um but if they are listening, that is our solution for you. That's our plus up. You know, that is our plus up for you guys because rides like Pirates of the Caribbean, they yes, they have become an IP, but they were originally meant to be an immersive storybook experience.

Kelly 16:58

Yeah.

Pete 16:59

Where if the story goes everywhere, it is pretty much like it becomes like listening to one of my deep dives. Rather than a nice linear story, he goes off on one of his tangents for half an hour. Right. And when you when you when you put in an effect that doesn't quite fit into the context of what's going on around it, it's jarring. And if it's small enough to fit, if it fits in that area, which you know, I'm sure it could be done. Yeah, move it. Put it into the Johnny Depp area. I guarantee you, it if you do it correctly, I would be really willing to bet all of the employees at Wed a soda.

unknown 17:46

Yeah.

Pete 17:46

Because if they do it and they go, you're right, you owe us a soda, moving that animatronic to that area. I guarantee you the fans will love you for that. And then you will get the accolade that you deserve for your hard work on that effect. Because the effect itself on its own could be great if you just handle it with some finesse. Yeah. And I think it was this blatant like, we're just gonna pop it in here and to heck with you. Right. That I think also got a lot of people rankled. Yeah. So me included. So but that's my plus up on I think I think it's a good plus up. I will, I will double down on that. Okay. You'll do doubloon down on it. Oh, god. All right, I threw in a pirate deniscope. All right. Hey

Caveman Flash Mob Pitch And Farewell

Pete 18:32

everybody, thanks for joining us with this shorty short. Yeah, thank you. Be sure to send out uh send out a notice to all your friends. Let them know that you like this program. And also, we wanted to float an idea by you. Oh, yeah. We recently did an episode about the cave train of Santa Cruz, California. Yeah. And after we were done, we realized we had so much fun and thought, you know, wouldn't it be kind of cool if we organized kind of a flash mob? Yeah. So if you're interested, we're thinking of organizing a flash mob to the Santa Cruz Beach boardwalk of cavemen to go on a cave training, uh cavetrain experience. Caveman invasion of the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk. Show up as your best bedrock citizen in your best fake fur caveman outfit. Yeah. We'll ride the roller coasters and bonk people on the heads with styrofoam clubs and have a grand old time.

Kelly 19:26

We're thinking about maybe September.

Pete 19:28

Yes, September of 2026. So if you're listening to this and if you're interested, pop a comment on or send us a message, let us know. Yeah. Because the more messages we get, the more likely that we're probably gonna do it. Yeah. Because if we don't hear from you, probably we'll go like and I mean we might do it anyway, we just won't tell you. Yeah. It'll just be the two of us, and the heck with you guys. Yeah. But we'd love to have our regular listeners. Yeah. And and and for those who listen to us in Russia and Hong Kong and Germany, etc. And once again, we apologize for the mispronunciation of Yiddish in our last episode. We're so sorry. But uh, if you are interested, let us know. We would be very, very excited to uh see our fans in person. Yeah. A lot of fun.

Kelly 20:14

That sounds great.

Pete 20:16

All right, I'm Peter Overstreet.

Kelly 20:17

I'm Kelly McCubbin. You've been listening to Lowdown Plus Up. We hope

How To Reach Us

Kelly 20:30

you've enjoyed this episode of The Lowdown on the Plus Up. If you have, please tell your friends where you found us. And if you haven't, we can pretend this never happened and need not speak of it again. For a lot more thoughts on theme parks and related stuff, check out my writing for Boardwalk Times at BoardwalkTimes.net. Feel free to reach out to Pete and I on our Lowdown on the Plus Up Facebook group or send us a message directly at comments at lowdown-plus-up.com. We really want to hear about how you'd plus these attractions up and read some of your ideas on the show. Our theme music is Goblin Tinker Soldier Spy by Kevin McLeod at IncompTech.com. We'll have a new episode out real soon. Why? Because we like you.